Higby on Magriders - Page 4

Hamma · 2013-02-18, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

What is it about Magrider threads? Brings the most amazing arguments out of the woodwork.

Consistent over 10 years even

ChipMHazard · 2013-02-18, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hamma

Consistent over 10 years even

Aye, I'm having the darndest feeling of Déjà vu.

Sifer2 · 2013-02-18, 10:56 PM

Why did Higby have to go to work to play Planetside 2? Does the man not have his own gaming PC? The shocking truth revealed! Get him!

typhaon · 2013-02-18, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Hmmm.......Higby's data.....yup...looks fair to me.

http://i.imgur.com/8Ouhkqs.png

Based on this data, it's clear how just insanely OP that Mags were prior to GU2. Look at the drop off after the update, no wonder the VS are crying.

I'd expect the Prowlers to be getting hit with the nerf bat in the next week or so. As it should be.

Right... maybe Prowlers need to be tuned back a bit when matched up against a Vanguard, but otherwise things seem pretty balanced...

If anyone should be crying, it should be NC... but I get VS... when you used to be massively OP and are now just in the middle, it hurts.

Kerrec · 2013-02-18, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrec

WHAT? You need to take a statistics class. And look up the definition of "average".

Do you really believe that the VS are the only ones with "smart/skilled" tank drivers and every TR/NC in a tank is just dumb/noobish?

With a large sample size, it is very probable that all of the levels of skill are represented. To have a situation where only the VS have the "skilled" players would be an ASTRONOMICAL improbability.

Lets take your thought process one step further. The 4th faction is pretty much an agreed upon faction. The VS populations dropped while the NC/TR populations increased. Do you think all the VS people quit playing, and at the same time a whole bunch of new people started playing? And out of all those new people, none chose VS? Get real! They switched teams.

Having switched teams, using the now FOTM tanks of the TR/NC against their Prior Team Magriders, they only manage to achieve a draw? All those "skilled" players now using Prowlers and Vanguards can't dominate the now super nerfed Magriders?

People asked for numbers. They were provided. Now you choose to ignore those numbers and make up fantasy stories to argue them away. You Sir, are sad.

EDIT: And you want to know what is REALLY FUNNY? Look at those numbers again. It appears that Prowlers are a little bit overpowered, although not as much as Magriders used to be.

But take a look at Prowler vs. Magrider. At first, Prowlers were winning. Later on, Magriders are gaining lost ground. Can most likely attribute the early lost ground to the bugs that slowly got fixed.

Now take a look at Vanguard vs. Magrider. Same story. Magrider lost ground early on, and started making it back up later. Again, can most likely attribute the early lost ground to the bugs that slowly got fixed.

Here's the kicker!!! Look at Prowler vs. Vanguard. Prowler wins. So, the overall overpoweredness of the Prowler in the global standing is a result of Vanguards not being up to snuff with Prowlers. To get that final bit of balance, all that would be necessary is to tweak the Vanguard and Prowler dynamic. Magriders wouldn't even need to be touched...

I'm actually going to retract what I've posted above, and apologize. Not saying Magriders were not OP, nor am I saying that they are UP now.

However, if you look at Magrider vs. Prowler graph, then look at Magrider vs. Vanguard graph, they are IDENTICAL. Just the colors are changed.

I no longer have faith in that graph.

DirtyBird · 2013-02-18, 11:59 PM

Identical charts is fishy.

Lonehunter · 2013-02-19, 12:18 AM

I just have to say I love the chart Higby used.

Linkage

Like he said it's not the determining factor in game balance but it's basically a good tool to show a problem, and it shows the kind of stats they're tracking.

It reminds me of the maps they showed that had colored hot spots varying in color by number of deaths in the area, or shots. I'd love to see ALL of that info go public.

and I wanna know how many shots have been fired since release

NUKABAZOOKA · 2013-02-19, 01:09 AM

Now show us the MAX charts.

lncabin · 2013-02-19, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

Magrider in reverse 32 kmph - strafe 37 - top speed 50 - Very fast from switching from forward to reverse and vice versa
Planetside 2 Magrider top speed and acceleration curve fowards, reverse and forwards again - YouTube

Mags can do a quick spin to get a mental map of whats behind him and keep the front facing the threat while maintaining it's ability to dodge attack and going at a speed of 32 kmph or 37 if u strafe.
.

You need to learn some math because your 37 is not 37 to the side. It was 15 to the side and 33 to the front or back. A magrider strafes as fast as someone runnning on foot and if you can hit someone on foot you should be able to hit a strafing mag.

The equation, by the way, is sqrt([sideways speed]^2 + [normal speed]^2]) = what it says on the HUD.

Rothnang · 2013-02-19, 01:33 AM

The whole "The Proof is in the Chart" argument is pissing me off because from day 1 of the Magrider debate I have been saying "Yes, the Magrider does better overall, but primarily because the other tanks are much more difficult to use right so their performance is less consistent." - The chart supports that, the Magriders were doing better, though it doesn't show us why.
I've also been saying: "If you buff the other tanks statistics you can make the Chart say its even, while still making the game Magrider significantly worse than other tanks for high end players" - The chart does show that it's even now, and the other tanks have much better raw stats.
And a bunch of people go "Haha! You are wrong, the proof is in the chart!" ... No, it isn't. The Chart shows exactly what I predicted, without giving any information on how consistent the performance for those tanks is, so it isn't proven either way whether or not what I'm saying is happening.

BIGGByran · 2013-02-19, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The whole "The Proof is in the Chart" argument is pissing me off because from day 1 of the Magrider debate I have been saying "Yes, the Magrider does better overall, but primarily because the other tanks are much more difficult to use right so their performance is less consistent." - The chart supports that, the Magriders were doing better, though it doesn't show us why.
I've also been saying: "If you buff the other tanks statistics you can make the Chart say its even, while still making the game Magrider significantly worse than other tanks for high end players" - The chart does show that it's even now, and the other tanks have much better raw stats.
And a bunch of people go "Haha! You are wrong, the proof is in the chart!" ... No, it isn't. The Chart shows exactly what I predicted, without giving any information on how consistent the performance for those tanks is, so it isn't proven either way whether or not what I'm saying is happening.

Can you tell me what you think this chart is saying?

Do you believe this chart only says that All Magriders before GU2 were 2/2 Saron, front armor upgrade, rival chassy, and all other tanks were stock 1/2? Or can you say that this chart is a sum of all tanks (1/2, 2/2, Stock, Upgraded) mashed into an average, which should give u a fairly good idea of the strengths and weakness of the average tank in general.

Rothnang · 2013-02-19, 02:00 AM

Ok, my whole argument is this:

Prowler/Vanguard are much more difficult to use than the Magrider, because they have independent hull and turret angles, they have much stiffer movement, and their guns get rocked more by driving around.

Because of this lower end players do a lot better with the Magrider than lower end players do with the other tanks.

However, if someone is so good that they can deal with all those downsides, they can be about even with a Magrider in power.

So that's the situation we had before the patch, and it obviously shows in the numbers. Magriders outperform the other tanks almost 2 to 1, which is huge. They have to make some changes, and they give the other two tanks a significant buff to their stats.

My argument now is that Magriders are still much easier to use than the other tanks, so low end Magrider players are still winning against low end Prowler/Vanguard players.

However, the Prowler/Vanguard are now actually much stronger than a Magrider when controlled by a player who is so good with them that he was fighting Magriders on even terms before the patch.

Ok, really quick and dirty little graph I just threw together so what I'm saying is easy to visualize:

What I'm saying is basically that instead of changing how much of a tanks total potential people can easily accessed the patch has simply increased the tanks total potential to make the average players even, but by doing that has made the tank much more powerful for people who can access all or most of its potential.

(Note, that graph is just a visual aid, it shows no actual comparison of stats or data! We don't currently have the data to make a graph like that that shows how it would really look)

psijaka · 2013-02-19, 02:55 AM

You can try to twist the truth as much as you like, Rothnang, but the fact remains that the MBT K/D data clearly shows that the Magrider was massively OP before the patch, and that, barring minor tweaks, the balance is about right now. It's time that you faced up to this.

Edit - as others have pointed out, it looks as if there is something wrong with the Mag v Prowler or the Mag v Vanguard stats; the graphs are identical. My guess is that they have used the same data set. But the underlying trend in the top graph is clear for all to see.

-psijaka removes egg from face-

Rothnang · 2013-02-19, 03:12 AM

Yup, good job completely ignoring the fact that the graph Higby posted doesn't prove either one of us right.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I'm saying it pisses me off how many people seem to think the argument is definitively over just because they don't understand statistics.

Also I never said the Magrider wasn't overpowered before the patch, just that I would have preferred it if they had tried to balance the tanks on ease of use instead of raw stats. The Magrider was never better on raw stats.

Emperor Newt · 2013-02-19, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Badjuju

There is no reason to use the Carv or Orion in this game, so how is that relevant. Both are sub par in their niche compared to another weapon. Differences in the best weapons in any class are so small with the given TTK that they don't matter any ways.

But to be on topic, I (VS) didn't have much of an issue with the new mag. But that's most likely I was already using roads most of the times and engaged prowlers/vanguards in open field with double ap guns. GU2 didn't change much for me.

And I would not say that the Mag was "massively" op, sure it needed some tweaking but more then that the vanguard was up in many situations. I found prowlers to be pretty dangerous pre-gu2, but most of the time they had HE equipped (which is still pretty dangerous to tanks but sucks against 2xAP). Also, I very rarely see 2/2 vanguards or prowlers and 1/2s simply get obliterated by 2/2 AP. But more prowlers teaming up then vanguards for sure.