we need to see the scat max stats. ( devs please read) - Page 4

ChipMHazard · 2013-03-13, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Lepalose

Lets not get entirely side tracked here.

The purpose of this thread is to get awareness of the fact that we want the statistics to be released so we do not have these "hand waving" arguments.

If the Devs would kindly oblige (I know it takes a bit of time to data mine and all), I think the discussions would be better informed. And if we can largely agree, across empires, and as a group, that this is something the PS2 community desires I think they would spend a little time getting this data to us.

So lets focus on getting the data first, and save the flame wars until after.

Aye

Maidere · 2013-03-13, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

I'd love to know where this "60%" number comes from.

The NC MAX weaponry is the strongest. Currently, it is the NC's strength. TR have the best LMG and tank. VS have the best ESF. It's called variety. Up in your face, the NC MAX is the best choice on the battlefield. Med-long range, TR infantry becomes the best choice. Tanks vs. tank, Prowler or Mag. Farming infantry? Prowler. A2A, Scythe. It goes round and round.

Back to NC MAXes, the NC MAX basically hits like an alpha strike. It hits hard, but doesn't sustain. You will get caught up reloading a lot. The VS MAX is the best for mowing through multiple infantry and the TR MAX is good at that too. Ever notice that NC MAXes are very loud when they walk? TR MAXes are quieter and VS MAXes tip-toe. They are different. They are all good with support.

Honestly, they should remove AV MAXes and just have AI and MAX buster MAXes - Anti-MAX MAXes.

I hope you do understand that this is not how balance works in FPS games.

Sturmhardt · 2013-03-13, 08:35 AM

Does anyone know what EXACT number they want? What statistic is it you are precisely looking for? Under what circumstances should the numbers be generated? Would the chosen numbers reflect reality? I can't think of any single number that would clearly point out what you are looking for.

.sent via phone.

Maidere · 2013-03-13, 08:40 AM

NC MAX K/D in Biolab area vs other empire MAXs by example.

Sturmhardt · 2013-03-13, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Maidere

NC MAX K/D in Biolab area vs other empire MAXs by example.

But that would not reflect the whole story, would it? Of course the k/d of NC maxes in biolabs would be better than in amp stations or tech labs because biolabs are some of the few places the nc max can shine. This would only tell us how maxes perform in that given area and not show the whole picture. Even if the k/d in biolabs of nc maxes is better than the others, you can't evaluate the significance of that information without knowledge of the k/d in other areas.

.sent via phone.

Maidere · 2013-03-13, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Sturmhardt

But that would not reflect the whole story, would it? Of course the k/d of NC maxes in biolabs would be better than in amp stations or tech labs because biolabs are some of the few places the nc max can shine. This would only tell us how maxes perform in that given area and not show the whole picture. Even if the k/d in biolabs of nc maxes is better than the others, you can't evaluate the significance of that information without knowledge of the k/d in other areas.

.sent via phone.

We dont need the whole picture because the only place where it's OP is biolab. Maybe we need more MAX-related statistics from the biolab.
You cant say "NC MAX is ok becuase when it obliterates everything in the Biolab it sucks in the other areas". Because if it's true is clearly broken.

Sifer2 · 2013-03-13, 09:49 AM

Hehe the stat will look even worse than the Magriders honestly if they ever dare post it. This is because there are some people who abuse the ScatMAX like you wouldn't believe. There are some that drop them on the tower at the Crown every 5 minutes, and just run around getting a streak. Or drop them anywhere where there are a lot of targets really. It's hard not to get at least 3 kills with the thing before your taken down no matter the odds, and no matter how bad you are. So it's a farmers dream.

In comparison the other Empires MAX's are used far less frequently. Mostly only in places where it makes sense.

Sturmhardt · 2013-03-13, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Maidere

We dont need the whole picture because the only place where it's OP is biolab. Maybe we need more MAX-related statistics from the biolab.
You cant say "NC MAX is ok becuase when it obliterates everything in the Biolab it sucks in the other areas". Because if it's true is clearly broken.

That's not true. AP shells are good against tanks and useless against infantry, still they are not broken. You have to look at the whole picture to determine if something needs to be changed or not. Something becomes OP when it's the best choice for petty much every situation. You can't just pull the biolab k/d and say you thoroughly examined the whole issue.

.sent via phone.

Maidere · 2013-03-13, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Sturmhardt

That's not true. AP shells are good against tanks and useless against infantry, still they are not broken. You have to look at the whole picture to determine if something needs to be changed or not. Something becomes OP when it's the best choice for petty much every situation. You can't just pull the biolab k/d and say you thoroughly examined the whole issue.

.sent via phone.

Unlike AP shells, scattermaxes are NC-only.

Mastachief · 2013-03-13, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Maidere

Unlike AP shells, scattermaxes are NC-only.

So in that same vein maidere are we also going to look at the tr and vs maxes against the nc in more open bases then?

It's not broken merely high specialised. The stats you are wanting op need to be the overall stats and for all max weapons and all empires, broken down in to the individual hexes so we can pick apart just how situational each max is.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-03-13, 11:14 AM

I absolutely agree that at 8 meters or less the nc max is OP. but in the same breath I have to say beyond 8m the nc max is UP. There are other considerations to be mad as well that factor into this. Nc scat has very limited clip size. Nc max has limited ammo pool to draw from. Nc max has the longest reload times (I might be wrong on this point). So when you say nerf the nc max I say it is already starting from a poor situation. Literally the only moment this weapon system shines is with a full clip and less than eight meters. So what would you do to fix the max without breaking it for the nc?

Shamrock · 2013-03-13, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Lepalose

Lets not get entirely side tracked here.

The purpose of this thread is to get awareness of the fact that we want the statistics to be released so we do not have these "hand waving" arguments.

If the Devs would kindly oblige (I know it takes a bit of time to data mine and all), I think the discussions would be better informed. And if we can largely agree, across empires, and as a group, that this is something the PS2 community desires I think they would spend a little time getting this data to us.

So lets focus on getting the data first, and save the flame wars until after.

Good point.

One solution id posted on official forums is just to return AV MAX's to their original anti-MAX role, a scat should hit run when it see's a Duel-Pounder or Duel-Comet, instead of flooring them in a split second. The solution also provides some balance in that the NC gets use of duel-Falcons for the same role. This would of course require some adjustment to damage and fire rate.

What I truly hate currently about Scat/Hacksaw Max's is there is no real hard counter to a Scat with support engineers, they will chew up HA's in any indoor situation. The whole distance thing is a total strawman argument, every smart NC player I see charges towards their opponent to point-blank them and uses it to escape if no engineer support is not immediately available.

Sifer2 · 2013-03-13, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I absolutely agree that at 8 meters or less the nc max is OP. but in the same breath I have to say beyond 8m the nc max is UP. There are other considerations to be mad as well that factor into this. Nc scat has very limited clip size. Nc max has limited ammo pool to draw from. Nc max has the longest reload times (I might be wrong on this point). So when you say nerf the nc max I say it is already starting from a poor situation. Literally the only moment this weapon system shines is with a full clip and less than eight meters. So what would you do to fix the max without breaking it for the nc?

You already have Slugs for it which in theory gives you a ranged option at the expense of damage. Though from what I understand just using Dual Falcons is even more effective for range lol.

The truth is MAX's in general are a close range class. Give the TR/VS MAX a whirl in the VR training, and you will see that's the case. The same areas the NC MAX is strongest is also the areas the TR/VS MAX are strongest. It's just the NC version is vastly better because killing instantly is better than killing over a few seconds time in a shooter. An while you might say that there is a sweet spot of around 20m where a TR/VS MAX can beat a ScatMAX in a fair fight. This is negated thanks to Charge. It takes only a moment to charge an enemy MAX then kill them in a few shots. There is little they can do to counter this since by the time they even realize you charged on their screen an begin to turn around, and try to charge away they are nearly dead.

snafus · 2013-03-13, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Sturmhardt

That's not true. AP shells are good against tanks and useless against infantry, still they are not broken. You have to look at the whole picture to determine if something needs to be changed or not. Something becomes OP when it's the best choice for petty much every situation. You can't just pull the biolab k/d and say you thoroughly examined the whole issue.

.sent via phone.

How are AP rounds useless against infantry? To say that would have to imply they don't one shot all infantry. And I would love it if they showed a broader scope to the stats. But for starters how about the K/D ratio for all maxes with AI weapons. Then also show those same stats that took place in specific locations, like bio labs and towers.

Rumblepit · 2013-03-13, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sturmhardt

Does anyone know what EXACT number they want? What statistic is it you are precisely looking for? Under what circumstances should the numbers be generated? Would the chosen numbers reflect reality? I can't think of any single number that would clearly point out what you are looking for.

.sent via phone.

MAX against MAX K vs Calendar Day
MAX Kills per life vs Calendar Day
% MAX Kills vs Range Killed for a given week
% of MAX death vs Killing Blow (i.e. MAX, Launcher, C4, Vehicle)