Tank rear armour versus Pods - Page 4

maradine · 2013-03-27, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

I would like to see a comparision as well. Not that I think you are wrong, but to know exactly what the difference is. I think it could take more time to kill a tank with a tank in the rear.. except for prowlers.

It's probably closer to 3-4x. I also don't see it as an issue. Tank-on-tank TTK is actually the anomaly here when you look at the rest of the ecosystem. I'm not saying that's good or bad - just that it's consistent.

Binkley · 2013-03-27, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

As far as the shield damage.... umm you can have the nanite repair, activate the shield and get hit while the nanite repair still works. As discussed in the video below. So what does that tell you about damage with shield up?

The Vanguard shield doesn't block infinite damage, it absorbs 3000hp. A Vanguard with its shield up dies in less than one volley of photon pods (12 of 14), when hit in the rear ( the same with Hellfire rocket pods ), one volley, 2.4 seconds TTK.

http://www.ps2calc.com/#vehicle1=Van...n1=Photon+Pods

Binkley · 2013-03-27, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

I would like to see a comparision as well. Not that I think you are wrong, but to know exactly what the difference is. I think it could take more time to kill a tank with a tank in the rear.. except for prowlers.

As I wrote in another post before I read the above, TTK a shielded Vanguard from the rear for Photon pods is 2.37s. For a Prowler with HEAT it's 7.5s, with AP 7s. Those times assume that the Vanguard is shielded at the start of the attack and the shield's timer doesn't expire. Best case, a Magrider with AP and a secondary Saron with all hits in the rear kills the shielded Vanguard in 3.75s.

My source is www.ps2calc.com

Dragonskin · 2013-03-27, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Binkley

As I wrote in another post before I read the above, TTK a shielded Vanguard from the rear for Photon pods is 2.37s. For a Prowler with HEAT it's 7.5s, with AP 7s. Those times assume that the Vanguard is shielded at the start of the attack and the shield's timer doesn't expire. Best case, a Magrider with AP and a secondary Saron with all hits in the rear kills the shielded Vanguard in 3.75s.

My source is www.ps2calc.com

I thought your edit button was broken, but you edited this post.

Varsam · 2013-03-28, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Corvo

It could be simply done by adding wide rear flaps to top armor.

If it should be done is an entirely different question. Attacking a vehicle from behind is a skill-based tactic. I don't fly very often as I generally prefer infantry combat over vehicle combat but from my experience in the VR training area I can tell it's a pretty hard thing to pull off. This game is already not very skill-heavy with too many random things to factor in and you are suggesting to remove one of the few skill-based factors.

I am personally with you on this one, but then again I'd support any rocketpod nerf just because I think we need more skill-based weapons for aircraft and more of them in general with distinct roles for each. Rocketpods shouldn't be the only viable thing when you are equipping your ESF. I expect many pilots will object to this though.

I fly quite a bit, and I agree wholeheartedly. Rocket podding (particularly tanks from behind) aided greatly in my ascent to BR59, and I feel that rear damage bonus for aircraft is unnecessary. This is coming from a Vanu, who have the worst incarnation of rocket pods of the three factions. As far as it being a skill-based tactic... there's no huge skill involved in attacking the bright red brake lights on a vehicle when you can move in three dimensions and you travel at 200+ km/h.

The claim that undefended vehicles deserve the fate they currently get is ridiculous. For one thing, if they're undefended they're going to die regardless, even if the rear armor bonus didn't exist. It'll just take 2 or 3 rocket runs instead of just one. For another, "properly defended armor" has never stopped me or any of my outfitmates from ramming rockets up tanks' asses, even with multiple flak units and any number of lock-on launchers in the area. Smart pilots do 3 things: they use terrain cover, they carry flairs, and they never stop moving. These things combined with an ESF's natural speed and maneuverability mean that I can choose literally any attack vector I want. It is exceedingly easy to choose a vector that lines up squarely with the rear of a tank, and I'm on site for such a short amount of time that flak and launcher units simply do not have enough time to down me (unless they see me coming first, which is my mistake).

People who defend rocket pod's effectiveness against tanks (and in general) are most likely simply addicted to their universal effectiveness. I am too, but at least I'm not going to lie to myself about it.

Thunderhawk · 2013-03-28, 08:12 AM

You obviously don't play on a server that is full of people that know how to incorporate AA into their Squad and platoon makeups....

I'm sorry, but the AA state of the game renders all these arguments pointless.

Gimpylung · 2013-03-28, 08:55 AM

Punish the Tanks because flyers perceive AA to be OP?

Rolfski · 2013-03-28, 09:56 AM

I agree with OP, taking out a tank in one volley feels lame while doing it and is just frustrating to be on the end of it.

And don't give me this situational awareness crap. This game is so chaotic that many times, you just won't see it coming, no matter how skilled of a tanker you are. And having you tank permanently manned by an AA gunner is just not how this game works. Lone wolves won't find themselves a tank gunner easily and even within outfit play that's not always the case.

As for the pilot side, it certainly takes practise but once you are a skilled pilot and know when to engage or bail out, you can farm like nobodies business. It's not even funny. Check out some of the YouTube channels of good pilots and you get my point.

Dragonskin · 2013-03-28, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Check out some of the YouTube channels of good pilots and you get my point.

Sure, please everyone take this advice. Go find footage of people farming 50-100 people in ESFs in the current game. I want to see videos of this with in the last update that came out with the ESAVs. I would be interested to see if anyone can find some amazing footage post AA updates across the board which includes the new Striker.

Gimpylung · 2013-03-28, 11:25 AM

If you are having trouble as a flyer with the new ESAV then I suggest switching to TR then that problem is solved. But thats a story for a flyboy thread which won't involve me.

I think flyers would be wise not to moan about ESAV in a thread about tank durability.

So we'll just not mention them here anymore.

Thunderhawk · 2013-03-28, 11:46 AM

We're not (or at least I'm not) trying to use AA as an excuse per se. I am trying to say that Planetside 2 is - last I checked - a combined arms game, and you cannot put an ESF in a vacuum with a MBT then start wanting things nerfed.

Sure, if we were on the field with ESF vs MBT and nothing else around, then yes the lolpods are stupid when it comes to TTK on MBTs, I am first one to agree that it is the case, but in game, whilst playing it, an ESF cannot decimate an entire Tank column, an ESF cannot go around killing all MBTs without fearing for being locked / flacked / shot at with small arms fire (trust me it hurts).....

All you have to do is turn, strafe, move BACKWARDS, move Forwards, anything.....

And... if you are in your tank and get instagibbed by an ESF, it had to have been able to land an entire volley for it to "blow up"....meaning nothing was locking, shooting, flacking, looking at it funny for it to do so.

Rough idea of numbers, out of 10 (different) ESF vs MBT encounters:-

3 MBTs will be instagibbed
5 MBTs will be severely damaged, but repairable, whilst the ESF flees (being shot at)
2 MBTs would have shot down the ESF if they had AA guns on them, AND A 2nd GUNNER (something you guys fail to mention is that having AI main gun and AV secondary gun means you made a decision to be vulnerable to air.

------------------

Now if they decide to NERF the Lolpods so it takes 2 Volleys to kill a Tank in the rear, then I would not be upset by that either, players would adapt, game styles will change, but I am just tried of the constant ESF debate that constantly ensues whenever someone doesn't like dying in a game where you are meant to kill and be killed.

Gimpylung · 2013-03-28, 11:58 AM

I never asked for anything to be nerfed.

I'll quote my own original post...

Maybe, modify top armour so that it also increases rear protection from pods specifically. That might make top armour a worthwhile addition to a tank again, it was only ever somewhat justifiable to use when libs were OP and the sky was black with them.

Net effect, SOME tanks that have chosen top armour are a bit harder for lolpodders to gank. A choice.

Jeez, you flyboys perceive everything as NERF NERF NERF when it comes to your precious single seater ESF. You tell me to be more situationally aware and have 2 AA sundies flanking my mag and work as a team.

Meanwhile you fly around solowhoring with the ability to attack anything that moves and then cry when you are denied a kill and had to fly away coz some flak spammed you.

But I love you really Thunder

Thunderhawk · 2013-03-28, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Gimpylung

I never asked for anything to be nerfed.

I'll quote my own original post...

Net effect, SOME tanks that have chosen top armour are a bit harder for lolpodders to gank. A choice.

Jeez, you flyboys perceive everything as NERF NERF NERF when it comes to your precious single seater ESF. You tell me to be more situationally aware and have 2 AA sundies flanking my mag and work as a team.

Meanwhile you fly around solowhoring with the ability to attack anything that moves and then cry when you are denied a kill and had to fly away coz some flak spammed you.

But I love you really Thunder

I love you too man, I know this isn't personal

- We're talking in game mechanics

snafus · 2013-03-28, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Gimpylung

Punish the Tanks because flyers perceive AA to be OP?

No but if you leave armor exposed or unprotected it will be destroyed quite easily. This is a combined arms game, you can't balance everything from the 1v1 perspective. If you actually have some kind of AA in the area or simply your friendly armor just turns their guns in the direction of the ESF approach you have effectively stopped that threat. I personally get insta gibbed quite regularly by enemy armor that I didn't notice when I came in on a supposed solo MBT. There are so many ways to eliminate air atm it is ridiculous, use these assets with your armor and the problem will be fixed.

Dragonskin · 2013-03-28, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

We're not (or at least I'm not) trying to use AA as an excuse per se. I am trying to say that Planetside 2 is - last I checked - a combined arms game, and you cannot put an ESF in a vacuum with a MBT then start wanting things nerfed.

^ This. You guys want to keep going the 1v1 route. If you are in a tank by yourself... ei. no gunner.. and a ESF blows up your butt. You deserved it.

Tanks have much less to fear than ESFs do. Rocketpods were actually designed to hit ground vehicles.. not kill infantry like everyone thinks. You have 1 weak spot on a tank.. the rear. Knowing you have a weak spot in the rear means you should be watching your butt as much as possible to make sure you don't put it in an exposed situation.

Originally Posted by snafus

No but if you leave armor exposed or unprotected it will be destroyed quite easily. This is a combined arms game, you can't balance everything from the 1v1 perspective. If you actually have some kind of AA in the area or simply your friendly armor just turns their guns in the direction of the ESF approach you have effectively stopped that threat. I personally get insta gibbed quite regularly by enemy armor that I didn't notice when I came in on a supposed solo MBT. There are so many ways to eliminate air atm it is ridiculous, use these assets with your armor and the problem will be fixed.

He doesn't want to use anything to protect him. This is a solo 1v1 war he is waging. He can't be bothered to get help. All I have to say is at least this isn't PS1 because then you would need a 2nd person just to shoot anything unless you wanted to stay completely still while you shoot.

Anyway, this keeps going in a circular argument. Just like the Scatmax thread. I don't think any new ground is being covered.