Class-Switching Mentality

[Ellipson]

Originally Posted by Palerion

In attempt to sum up my thoughts, here are the three main things I was trying to discuss, yet don't think I managed to clarify or adequately deliver by any stretch of the imagination:

The main problem for me is that you keep bouncing from the support class argument to the LA/Infiltrator thing... it's really hard for me to figure out what you want done, outside of "every class can't handle every situation, except sometimes they shouldn't be able to because teamplay is important and sometimes they should because support classes are weak 1v1" which is a confusing thesis. Let's try to figure it out.

1. I kind of want classes to have their own unique way to gain an edge in combat.

The Global Agenda anecdote aside (underrated game), this is your point, basically.

I don't think the gap between an HA's ability to kill things vs. anything else is as big as you're making it out to be. The weapons in the Carbine/AR class tend to have equal or slightly higher RPM compared to the LMG counterpart. The main difference is the shield, which depending on certs/et cetera, can result in the HA having at most 45% more health than you in the most ideal of situations (puts up full resist shield before they get hit, at full health/shield). In practice, this percentage is going to be a lot lower in "real" situations, not to mention the slightly higher DPS the other weapons are putting out.

HA shield numbers for reference here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...xMUJHNXc#gid=3

2. I don't like dying or having to switch classes in order to handle a situation. Personally I don't like having the option. I feel like it's a bit cooler to have to survive an onslaught of tanks until some friendly AT soldiers come, or do some serious improvizing if I'm not prepared to handle that situation

Doesn't this go against your "unique edge in combat" idea from 1? The whole point of your Global Agenda anecdote was that you could do things on Robotics that Assaults could do, and... now you don't want to be able to?

It improves team reliance to need that teammate to take out a tank if my class is more anti-infantry focused, and can lead to some McGyver moments when you can't get help. Having two people in a squad that focus on two different kinds of killing makes you have to call on your buddy(ies) in order to handle a situation that your class wasn't designed for. It gives both classes a sense of importance and integrity.

This happens now though; Medics are needed most of the time to sustain offensive pushes, Engis are needed for ammo/repairs for the same reason, and both classes can provide these needed support capabilities while still being able to kill infantry efficiently. LA's are excellent for good spawn beacon placement/flanking/dropping MAXes. Having an Infiltrator to flip enemy vehicle terminals for AMS Sunderers is a huge deal. These classes can perform their utility functions while having a large percentage of the killing power of the HA.

Trade-offs are trade-offs. You could build poison medics in GA, but you gave up a ton of healing power to do so. In PS2, you can bring Medic for revives and heals, but you have to give up some of that killing power to do so.

3. The infiltrator and LA seemed too close together in role in my opinion. I really didn't want to jump to a conclusion that they should be merged. I just wanted to express that they felt like they were meant for the same job. My hope is that they will develop in the future to become more unique soldiers. And while I know many people feel that they already are, I don't find their differences to be apparent enough. And that is not in attempt to call you wrong: it's just my view. I could see the developers paving very different paths for these classes in the future, but for now it's just a concern of mine.

You managed to write an entire paragraph about the LA and the Infiltrator without explaining what you think their role is now.

LA's are incredibly fun flankers/harassers that can ambush MAXes, tear up infantry, place beacons in impossible to reach locations (except for other LA's). I'm biased because I consider myself a pretty decent LA, but they're in a decent spot right now; I'm way better at wasting infantry on my LA compared to my HA because Jump Jet + Carbine (and shotguns if you're a heathen) is so good. My only complaint is running out of ammo.

Infiltrators probably need some help. Having vehicle hacks back would be pretty cool. I really don't think it'd be overpowered in a metagame that revolves around LA's and Engi's dropping on vehicles via beacons/squad deploy to instagib them. A greater emphasis on radar darts (make it as good as vehicle radar?) would help too. That said, they're the only class that can snipe and the only class that can flip terminals for surprise AMS, which means you almost always want one around.

So after all that...

It sounds like you basically want all the classes to be able to do everything in a pinch, while also having classes with specified roles. Or maybe you just want HA shields nerfed. Not sure.

[Palerion]

Originally Posted by Ellipson

The main problem for me is that you keep bouncing from the support class argument to the LA/Infiltrator thing... it's really hard for me to figure out what you want done, outside of "every class can't handle every situation, except sometimes they shouldn't be able to because teamplay is important and sometimes they should because support classes are weak 1v1" which is a confusing thesis. Let's try to figure it out.

In terms of the classes having their roles, I'm going to use your poison medic example from global agenda.

You could give up healing power for more killing power. In PS2, you can't, at least not without switching classes. Personally I would give up my AOE heal as a medic for more killing power. It isn't helping me revive and I can do fine with my med applicator. The tradeoff in PS2 that you refer to is basically going from one class to another. It's not this sculpting of a class to fit your playstyle that the developers flaunted before release.

I don't want every class to be more versatile AT ONCE. I do want to be able to focus my class either more on a support role or more on combat. You can have more versatility within the individual class as long as it does not all occur at once. Then, I could sculpt a medic to be more effective against HAs in infantry combat, still useless against vehicles, and less efficient (yet still capable) as a medic.

Now, about class switching:

I suppose I would like to make the class switching less convenient. My entire outfit redeployed one time as LAs just to get on top of that Mesa place on Indar. If there are vehicles and someone is playing medic or another class, they conveniently redeploy 50m away as an HA. That's just frustrating to me. I suppose I want that option to be less convinient: when you see a tank and don't have the tools to take it on, you should be like, "oh shit!". You should be forced to call on a prepared teammate. But instead, it seems more like, "oh... Redeploy, class-switch, destroy tank."

And the LA and infiltrator:

I really think they both are sneaky little bastards, and I can see that one uses a jetpack and one cloaks. But I'm just saying they don't stand out much to me. More gear in future developments, such as perhaps personal spawn beacons for LAs, and, as a poster before said, more uses for hacking, could set them apart more.

NOTE: I am treading carefully. I am being cautious not to spark any fiery remarks or retortions (not sure if that's a word xD) from people who disagree with me. Again, I may be asking for too much. I may be asking for a different game.

[Ellipson]

Originally Posted by Palerion

NOTE: I am treading carefully. I am being cautious not to spark any fiery remarks or retortions (not sure if that's a word xD) from people who disagree with me. Again, I may be asking for too much. I may be asking for a different game.

Not entirely. Have you checked out PS1? I think the loadout system from that game (pre-bump to the BR limit) did what you're asking for. You can download it and check it out real quick. There were no classes, persay; as you leveled up, you were able to pick more certifications from the following list in order to be a more flexible soldier. I get why they changed it, but even as casual PS1 player this is one feature I missed.

http://planetside.station.sony.com/h....vm?handle=6.7

[Palerion]

Originally Posted by Ellipson

Not entirely. Have you checked out PS1? I think the loadout system from that game (pre-bump to the BR limit) did what you're asking for. You can download it and check it out real quick. There were no classes, persay; as you leveled up, you were able to pick more certifications from the following list in order to be a more flexible soldier. I get why they changed it, but even as casual PS1 player this is one feature I missed.

http://planetside.station.sony.com/h....vm?handle=6.7

Yeah I know PS1 was like this. Sadly I didn't have the chance to play that game, as my computer was shabby and my wallet empty.

But here's my deal: I don't get why they changed it. I'm really fine with a class system, as long as we can expand on our roles within one class. The thing is, I know some people want the old loadout system back: although I'm not a PS1 vet, I want that too. But I don't think it will happen, which is why I would like for them to let us tune the classes more to our liking. That way they don't have to ditch the work they did on the class system, but we can still have a bit of flexibility and can play the classes how we want to play them.

[kubacheski]

Originally Posted by Palerion

Yeah I know PS1 was like this. Sadly I didn't have the chance to play that game, as my computer was shabby and my wallet empty.

But here's my deal: I don't get why they changed it. I'm really fine with a class system, as long as we can expand on our roles within one class. The thing is, I know some people want the old loadout system back: although I'm not a PS1 vet, I want that too. But I don't think it will happen, which is why I would like for them to let us tune the classes more to our liking. That way they don't have to ditch the work they did on the class system, but we can still have a bit of flexibility and can play the classes how we want to play them.

The easy answer to why they changed it is that ForgeLight is designed to run EQ:Next. Classes are inherent in an RPG. SOE thought that the ability to switch from one to another in PS2 would be acceptable as a replacement for the way certifications worked in PS1.

The long answer is that balance and QA for such a dynamic ability to specialize and certify is immense. Classes are much more cookie cutter in their designs. Noone is healing and repairing at the same time anymore. there's no one to many relationship between person and ability. it's all one to one. Or at least one to "one at a time".