The AA "ladder" is messed up.

[Illtempered]

Here's my plan for TR now....we just completely stop flying around them until they all get bored of their Bursters and pull Prowlers. Then we fly in!

lol

Edit to say: As a fan of ZOE, and having a biased opinion, these new MAX abilities should not work on the Bursters, VS or TR.

[MrMak]

ZOE and lockdown only exagerate the already existing problem. Bursters are too effective while Skyguards Rangers and AA turrets are not effective enaugh in comparisson.

[Illtempered]

Agreed, but let's take this one step at a time. Let's remove the salt from the wound before we sew it up.

[MrMak]

Originally Posted by Illtempered

Agreed, but let's take this one step at a time. Let's remove the salt from the wound before we sew it up.

There is no need. The Lockdown and ZOE boosts would be acceptable if bursters werent on the top of the AA chain.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by MrMak

ZOE and lockdown only exagerate the already existing problem. Bursters are too effective while Skyguards Rangers and AA turrets are not effective enaugh in comparisson.

I don't agree that Burster are too powerful before MAX abilities.
I will however entertain that the extra killing strength provided by them, in addition to MAXes Rendering Advantage, does push them into Overpowered Territory...

...But I've realise that this is much trickier to balance then we first though.
The two most obvious solutions leave at least one empire at a disadvantage; reducing the Bursters effective range over all nerfs NC BursterMAXes, while removing MAX ability bonuses from them greatly reduces the utility of TR's Lockdown.
As a Terrain Player, I can tell you I only got Lockdown for my Bursters, as it's one of the few situations where the additional DPS is more useful then mobility.

Thus for me to feel comfortable with the option of overall effective range reduction, I think we are going to need to overhaul the NC's Factional Ability into something more offensive...
Don't get me wrong, a Shield on a MAX to soak up more damage is something I could see being VERY useful, but unlike the other two the Aegis completely sacrifices any offensive ability for a direction defensive buff.
I'd much rather have an NS Shield that took up a Weapon Slot and needed to be constantly held up to provide protection, as that not only gives a new dynamic to MAX play over all, but also something to pair the new Melee Weapons with for close quarters face ripping.

So I'm thinking instead of a shield for more tanking like the Vanguard, the NC MAX should get something more like the other two that sacrifices something for an offensive boost.
Since this is the NC, I'm thinking something that boost Projectile Velocity and Damage, but greatly slows down ALL the movement capabilities of the MAX.
This makes an NC MAX much better at killing things down range, something NC players have complained about for a long time, but also requires more forethought in use since the user is left unable to quickly adjust their aim or move to react to something.

Now this really wouldn't make NC BursterMAXes anymore deadly to ESFs, as the slower tracking speed will make it difficult to lead one, but it would make well timed Falcon shots on them much deadlier.
That and this ability making NC BursterMAXes the best at taking down slower moving Aircraft at range, plus increasing the effective range of the Skyguard (AA Turrets are pretty good right now), would make an over all reduction to the Bursters effective range palpable.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by MrMak

ZOE and lockdown only exagerate the already existing problem. Bursters are too effective while Skyguards Rangers and AA turrets are not effective enaugh in comparisson.

yep. If the bursters did not have the longest effective range then I would be fine with the abilitys as they are right now, save lockdown giving them more range due to faster projectile speed.

Skygaurds really should be the ones shooting out to 600m wile bursters really should only shoot out to 200-300m.

[snafus]

Like I have said many times the nerf of the effective range of the burster to infantry render range and increase its COF are a must. But it must also be followed by the buff of the skyguad by a small degree in the form of faster turret transversal and tighter COF. This would allow infantry a solid way to defend themselves from being farmed but not allow an unfair advantage with render abuse. But at the same time focus true long range AA to a vehicle based platform to allow both parties to have a more fair engagement.

G2A should also have its range possibly slightly reduced and all lock on based weapons be required to keep target on reticule during missile flight. But for now if they simply fixed the tracking ability of the missiles and correct the late hits that a lot of aircraft are encountering the G2AM nerf may not be required.

Now as some would also say the nerf to AA must not be to severe. But with the new lattice system being activated SOE must see AA is quite literally never alone. And it must be balanced on a group scale and not on the individual. Before the smaller fights demanded AA be stronger but with these zerg on zerg fights we have now, they cannot stay the same.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by snafus

Like I have said many times the nerf of the effective range of the burster to infantry render range and increase its COF are a must.

Effective Range maybe, but not Cone of Fire on top of it...
Mostly because increasing the Cone of Fire is probably what they'd do to decrease the Effective Range in the first place...
Projectile Velocity and Specific Gravity aren't things you want to mess with when it comes to re-balancing Flak.

Even then, this still leaves the issue of MAX abilities, as the NC will receive a straight up Burster nerf in comparison to TR's Lockdown and (less so) VS Overdrive.

Originally Posted by snafus

But it must also be followed by the buff of the skyguad by a small degree in the form of faster turret transversal and tighter COF. This would allow infantry a solid way to defend themselves from being farmed but not allow an unfair advantage with render abuse. But at the same time focus true long range AA to a vehicle based platform to allow both parties to have a more fair engagement.

Well I'd be happy with just tightening the CoF if that is what is responsible for the atrocious leading you need to do, but I have to wonder how "small" of a degree you are talking about here because...

Originally Posted by snafus

Now as some would also say the nerf to AA must not be to severe. But with the new lattice system being activated SOE must see AA is quite literally never alone. And it must be balanced on a group scale and not on the individual. Before the smaller fights demanded AA be stronger but with these zerg on zerg fights we have now, they cannot stay the same.

You do realise the prevalence of Flak is not going to be reduced by these changes, right?

Even if you do give long range Air killing power back to the Skyguard after taking it away from the MAX, in big fights people are just going to pull more Skyguards instead of MAXes.
There is going to be the same volumes of Flak with the same reach, just coming from easier to spot sources...

...This also begs the question of how small scale AA is effected, as Airzergs are still very much a problem for small Infantry groups needing to deal with them.

Originally Posted by snafus

G2A should also have its range possibly slightly reduced and all lock on based weapons be required to keep target on reticule during missile flight. But for now if they simply fixed the tracking ability of the missiles and correct the late hits that a lot of aircraft are encountering the G2AM nerf may not be required.

...Ok now you are just trying to piss me off.
Buggy targeting and hits, yeah those need to be fixed, but you need about a five-count with a Striker to GAIN a lock in the first place!

Considering how much Striker uses complain about even doing that due to practically everything in-between breaking and resetting the lock, there is no damn way they are going to let you add the additional requirement of continuous Line of Sight.

Range is also in a good spot right now; You can't just lock on to an aircraft because you can see it, but rather it needs to be within striking distance of you.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by snafus

Now as some would also say the nerf to AA must not be to severe. But with the new lattice system being activated SOE must see AA is quite literally never alone. And it must be balanced on a group scale and not on the individual. Before the smaller fights demanded AA be stronger but with these zerg on zerg fights we have now, they cannot stay the same.

This cuts both ways; with the new lattice system aircraft are rarely alone.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by psijaka

This cuts both ways; with the new lattice system aircraft are rarely alone.

Indeed, which brings me to my source of irritation when it comes to this subject; Pilots not realising what the ESFs role is in the Meta Game.

They are a fragile yet powerful burst damage delivery platform that relies on high mobility as a means to both hit their targets and avoid retaliation...

...The are the Vehicle Game's Rogues, Ninjas, Commandos, Paper Rams... GANKERS!

That's where my frustration lies; if you make such a unit too durable it becomes an untouchable blitzkrieg machine, and the entire game devolves into whoever can keep the most ESFs up at one time.
My cries are not "Learn to play, NOOBS," they are "RE-learn to play, Airchavs," because 'Airchavs' don't realise that their excessive demands to make balance cater to their play-style will offset the entire Meta-game ecosystem!

[psijaka]

Just had a look at the top 12 on the leaderboard; ALL of them have ESFs or Liberators as their most played vehicle.

No surprises there then.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by psijaka

This cuts both ways; with the new lattice system aircraft are rarely alone.

True but aircraft do not scale well in large numbers. After you have roughly six plus in the sky you are now a larger threat to each other then the enemy. Only experienced flight squads that are used to working with each other pull off flying with large number of aircraft in the same flight space. There is a reason I don't like to run platoon size air wings anymore. They are simply to much of a liability and danger to everyone and themselves.

But the burster max only requires you don't stand in front of each other. I can have 100 bursters sitting on a hill together and as long as there was enough engineers no other coordination would be needed. It is such a large skill gap between the two being effective it is quite saddening. And the best part is those 100 bursters would be completely invisible to any passing by aircraft.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Indeed, which brings me to my source of irritation when it comes to this subject; Pilots not realising what the ESFs role is in the Meta Game.

They are a fragile yet powerful burst damage delivery platform that relies on high mobility as a means to both hit their targets and avoid retaliation...

...The are the Vehicle Game's Rogues, Ninjas, Commandos, Paper Rams... GANKERS!

That's where my frustration lies; if you make such a unit too durable it becomes an untouchable blitzkrieg machine, and the entire game devolves into whoever can keep the most ESFs up at one time.
My cries are not "Learn to play, NOOBS," they are "RE-learn to play, Airchavs," because 'Airchavs' don't realise that their excessive demands to make balance cater to their play-style will offset the entire Meta-game ecosystem!

Yes we are well aware of our role in this game. The issue is the current state of AA stops us from even having a shot in doing that role since we are lit up multiple hexes away from invisible burster fire. But you seem to continuously disregard the fact we are trying to keep AA powerful but in a fair manor. At no point did I ask for ESF to become more durable in this post. By creating stronger sky guards our asses will still get shredded as they always have. But at least we will have a snow balls chance in hell to see the target or targets that are doing the deed. Again if you had any form of successful real flight time you would have a clue but you are still in training wheel phase.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by snafus

Yes we are well aware of our role in this game.

Well no, a large number of pilots aren't...
They just want to fly and farm kills, which is why I am so vehemently against Anti Air reductions.

Originally Posted by snafus

By creating stronger sky guards our asses will still get shredded as they always have. But at least we will have a snow balls chance in hell to see the target or targets that are doing the deed.

That's understandable and I agree with it, the problem is...

Originally Posted by snafus

Again if you had any form of successful real flight time you would have a clue but you are still in training wheel faze.

...I actually do play air Offensively by making strafing runs on the Front to support a push!
While I am not getting kills, I still feel as though I am contributing by wounding Tanks and Sunderers enough to get the Assist.

The Difference is...

Originally Posted by snafus

The issue is the current state of AA stops us from even having a shot in doing that role since we are lit up multiple hexes away from invisible burster fire.

I'm not instantly vaporised by Flak!
Sure I take damage from MAXes I'm not rendering, but their glowing tracer fire lets me know they are there, so I can easily put a bit of terrain between them and me.
So either you are being hit by invisble projectiles, which is a problem every player has to deal with, or Flak is so truly outrageous on your server that you can't stick your nose out of the Warpgate without getting lit up.

In any event, I constantly circle from the Front back to friendly territory regardless of whether I took damage, so I'm not just hanging in front of Bursters like a Pinata.

[Obstruction]

their excessive demands to make balance cater to their play-style will offset the entire Meta-game ecosystem!

PS2 doesn't have metagame. gg.