PS2 needs dynamic XP gain.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by raw

So to summarize:

The summary was longer then the body. Well said though!

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The downside to dynamic xp is that xp gain becomes harder to understand for new players and becomes yet another barrier to learning the game. It is also difficult to balance. Getting a constant set of points for each action is simple to teach, and simple to balance.

raw hit on this pretty well. The strategy game and complex items just simply NEED to be complex. It just is.
It seems there has been too much emphasis on trying to re-capture the people that quit PS1 quickly. The complaints that it was too complex and it too long to get into the fight were taken to heart and the answers in PS2 were just bad.
And the worst part? Those player who leave a game almost immediately? They are going to leave anyway. It is bad to try and cater to whatever reason they gave. Look more at the people that played for a long time THEN quit.

Weird or hard to understand XP gain shouldn't deter anyone that was going to stick around for any length of time anyway. It isn't hard to see oh that gave me a lot I'll try and figure out how to make that more consistent and oh... that didn't give me much if I don't have the time i'm not bothering with that anymore.

The PS1 method of people going on and doing things after you repaired/resed/healed/used a hacked terminal/spawned at your AMS was great. Yes it is tough to balance. Make rezzing worth it, but not so much that a few kills by the person you rezzed afterward makes being medic worth more than being a shooter.

Too bad this stuff couldn't get hashed out better in Beta, some people saw it, but it was harder to see overall because the people who were playing beta WANTED the fight. There was no desire to ghost cap in general.

[raw]

Originally Posted by Crator

The summary was longer then the body. Well said though!

That was just the summary for the problems around XP. Then followed a somewhat disconnected rant on how to make a good MMO.

[Electrofreak]

Thanks again to Malorn for his detailed explanation as to why the current system is in place. I would like to remind our other community members that he did say he was playing the devil's advocate in his post.

That said, I think we agree as a whole that trying to keep the XP system simple in order to retain players is something that is going to end up doing more harm than anything else. It's better, IMO, to have a complex system that players can just trust to reward them fairly than a simple system that is exploitable (which, me flying a Reaver into the grid of any base about to be captured, that's exploitable.)

Our responses have also mostly sidestepped Malorn's point on ease of balance, which is a fair point. A dynamic system can have issues with balance. So perhaps we should propose more of a hybrid system. I think that the current static player XP reward system is pretty good, with the exception of the spawn camp reward factor.

Simply include a system that provides substantially less XP (like just a few) for killing an infantry player less than 30 seconds after spawning. Something on a Gaussian curve would be good so that the people killing players at 28 seconds for example aren't screwed, and it gives players time to respawn, switch kits if they would like to, and still be worth fairly little to the campers.

Then, I'd say having a base capture dynamic XP system is mandatory. In PS1 the system did work well overall and I see little reason for it not to make it into PS2, as it's class-agnostic. The only thing the PS1 system was lacking was greater incentive for defenders. Even so, it's still a better system than is implemented currently, as attackers get full XP for capturing undefended bases or showing up at the last minute before a base is captured. The dynamic system encourages attackers to commit to a battle for an area instead of changing their objectives every spawn like a caffeine-addled squirrel with ADD, and so this allows defenders to dig in and hopefully rack up the XP (assuming bases are tweaked to favor defenders more).

I'd love to see something that better handled rewarding defenders but I'm not sure how it would be implemented. The current system does provide XP bonuses for defense (or so I'm told) but players aren't aware of them, so perhaps we need something up in the corner of the screen or on the stats menu that shows that a defender XP bonus is currently active.

Anyhow that's my say on the matter.

TL;DR -
I don't think we need to make EVERY aspect of PS2's XP system dynamic.

• Leave anything class-based static (heal/revive/repair/resupply bonuses). This helps to simplify XP balancing.

• Leave infantry kill payout at 100 XP, just include an XP penalty curve that ramps up to full XP payout 30 seconds after spawn.

• Include dynamic XP to attackers for base captures, rewarding XP based upon the intensity of the battle.

• Make defense bonus XP more visible to defenders by showing them that they're getting more XP for defending, encouraging them to stick around.

I think this is all we need to do, and I don't think it would be terribly hard to balance as none of it benefits any class over another, isn't crazy complicated (people will figure out that killing new spawns doesn't pay well), and dangles the carrot in front of attackers and defenders alike to promote epic battles.

After all, epic battles is really what PlanetSide is all about.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

• Leave anything class-based static.

Can you explain that? I'm not certain what static XP gain has to do with classes.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by Crator

Can you explain that? I'm not certain what static XP gain has to do with classes.

It was in response to Malorn's post where he stated that one main reason that SOE has avoided using a more dynamic XP system is because it's difficult to balance across classes.

Originally Posted by Malorn

Another challenge is helping make all classes roughly equally profitable in terms of XP gain. For example, Engineers and Medics have opportunities to earn XP which Light Assault, Infiltrators, MAX, and Heavies do not. Weights could be applied to certain actions but that creates inconsistency which becomes more confusion to new players.

So I can see where using the PS1 system of a kill being worth a variable amount according to how long the target has been alive and how many kills they've gotten could benefit / penalize combat class XP gain versus support class XP gain. Then you have to start determining the amount of XP that a support player should be gaining on average based upon the average lifespan of a player, which varies widely depending upon the situation, and I do see how that could be difficult to keep balanced.

If the devs have found a happy balance between XP gain between the classes using the static system, they can keep it. Few people are complaining about the amount of XP that you can get as class X versus class Y.

All I want when it comes to kill XP to change is for us to stop rewarding spawn campers with booku XP and certs, by putting in the XP penalty versus newly spawned players.

[ShadetheDruid]

Originally Posted by Crator

Can you explain that? I'm not certain what static XP gain has to do with classes.

I would assume that means anything class-specific that gives XP (hacking, revives/healing, repairs etc).

Edit: Boo, ninja.

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by Malorn

I still remember the lodestar drivers that would create little repair/rearm stations for aircraft and tanks that would make crazy XP from the repair, rearm, and indirect XP rewards from all the vehicles they helped.

Yup I was one of those. Talk about 20,000 exp per a support reward interval.

[DerpyHooves]

Also what about the average players who do not get many kills do to their fps. Mainly doing a support role and getting kill assists. What you propose seems like it would hurt their xp gain. However overall I do like your statement.

[Shogun]

i especially want dynamic xp for support stuff!
the way it was handled in ps1 was perfect.

i don´t like to be forced to shoot people to get xp at all.
a dedicated medic or engineer should be able to gain a fair amount of xp without firing his gun. healing and repairing are the main roles of these classes, so i don´t see why they should not get xp for fulfilling these roles!
if they have to kill players to get xp, they will dedicate less time to their role and that´s not a good thing.

you know, i am talking about getting support xp for every kill a healed or repaired player scores for some time after the heal/repair. and the same for hotdropper cab pilots and ams sundy drivers. ps1 had it nailed pretty well. every support activity could be as rewarding as directly shooting someone into the face.

i understand malorns post and the reason for the actual system, but i can´t help to call out the evil words again:
dumbing down
and a static xp system just to please players who need to be able to correctly calculate and plan their kills to max out their xp gain is dumbing down. the xp system should encourage to help your team instead of encouraging to maximise your k/d ratio.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by DerpyHooves

Also what about the average players who do not get many kills do to their fps. Mainly doing a support role and getting kill assists. What you propose seems like it would hurt their xp gain. However overall I do like your statement.

Well I play primarily support currently due to a 6-year old budget processor, 4 GB of RAM and a Radeon 5770. I'm lucky when my FPS is in the teens despite my processor overclocked to nearly double the stock speeds. After I finish moving into the new house I've just bought, perhaps I can invest in a better rig.

What I'm proposing doesn't increase or decrease average XP gain for combat classes. I should probably include this more recent post of mine in the first post:

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

TL;DR -
I don't think we need to make EVERY aspect of PS2's XP system dynamic.

• Leave anything class-based static (heal/revive/repair/resupply bonuses). This helps to simplify XP balancing.

• Leave infantry kill payout at 100 XP, just include an XP penalty curve that ramps up to full XP payout 30 seconds after spawn.

• Include dynamic XP to attackers for base captures, rewarding XP based upon the intensity of the battle.

• Make defense bonus XP more visible to defenders by showing them that they're getting more XP for defending, encouraging them to stick around.

I think this is all we need to do, and I don't think it would be terribly hard to balance as none of it benefits any class over another, isn't crazy complicated (people will figure out that killing new spawns doesn't pay well), and dangles the carrot in front of attackers and defenders alike to promote epic battles.

After all, epic battles is really what PlanetSide is all about.

So trust me man, I'm right there with yah!

[vipjerry]

Its kinda strange when devs say we have static XP cos they where worried if new players will understand XP system and for new players you dont have single useful in game tool-tip how to play, where to go, tutorial etc. Moreover introduction to PS2 for new players starts by putting them in front of shooting squad.
Common just stop stalling and fix this or PS2 will be history very soon.

You have Hamma and other videos and you know how and what to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=dYq-WdzQoao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DT-P...ature=youtu.be

I dont see the point of this discussion. If you wanna see your game still alive after January than do it...

[ringring]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The downside to dynamic xp is that xp gain becomes harder to understand for new players and becomes yet another barrier to learning the game.

This wasn't my experience. Ok, maybe people didn't understand how exactly the xp was awaarded for a base cap, many believed it was related to the number of enemies killed in the SOI - but not understanding the exact math behind it didn't matter, people got the substance. And when a cr5 called for the spawns not to be destroyed or the gen not to be taken down in order to maximise the xp, it was understood and sometimes acted on, albeit with a little repitition for emphasis.

And I agree with this thread.

[Kate]

I agree with a lot of whan's been said here. IMHO, dynamic XP would improve gameplay by better rewarding actions which are truly more helpful and beneficial to the team, and probably more challenging and fun.

My thoughts on a possible xp scheme:

Player kill value:

Base player XP value starts at 20, goes to 50 by 3s (+10/s), increases to 75 at 8s (+5/s), then finally to 100 at 18s (+5/2s). If the player is rezzed, value goes from 50 to 100 in 5s. 5xp is added after each minute of life, leading to a max kill value of 125 xp.

Rationale: Values are based on how oriented/threatening a player would be after spawn. It takes a few seconds to look around, become oriented, and start moving/attacking. Values would link exp with effort more, and make camping for purely farming reasons less incentivized. As for the higher value for living longer, I think that generally the longer life of these players either means they are skilled, hiding, camping, doing support work in a safer area, or have flanked you and ended up in a strange spot. Taking out those sorts of enemies is helpful.

Medic: 20 xp for rez. 20 xp patient longevity bonus added for every 4s the casualty stays alive, ending at 16s. A rez where the player survives for 16s leads to 100 xp, not including healing tics or subsequent assists.

Effect: Would reward medics doing a good job by rezzing when worthwhile, and following up with ongoing care. Makes letting people dying over and over less rewarding than quality care.

Taking down challenging enemies:

5 xp added for each inf/veh kill the enemy inf/pilot or vehicle had gotten in that life. 3 added for each crit assist. 2 added for each assist, revive, and hack they'd done, 1 xp for every tick of heal, re-arm, and repair they'd done.

Vehicles - For vehicles killed, also add 3 xp per spawn or people it'd delivered. Damaging a vehicle for 25% of it's health within it's lifetime yields 10% of what it's kill exp would be, regardless of if it dies. This can be awarded 4 times per individual enemy vehicle.

This would promote and reward taking on formidable and successful enemies, making things more enjoyable and increasing the targeting of anything unusually successful. Veh damage reward would help motivate aa/av a little more, and would increase vehicle kill rewards.

Support assists:

When you repair, rearm, heal, revive, or spawn a player, you gain assist standing with them. Standing is proportional to the total assistance given in any form during their life, with a maximum of 100% standing. Providing a spawn gives 5%, providing one tick of healing, ammo, or repair gives 5%, and providing a max or vehicle spawn or consumable resupply via a hacked terminal provides 5%. Once an assisted friendly dies/logs/redeploys, you get exp determined by this: [percent assist standing during that person's life]*(5(Kills+vehicle destroys)+3(veh crit assists+inf crit assists)+2(assists+revives+hacks)+(ticks of heal, rearm, repairs)) = assist experience given.

Why do this? It would moderately encourage and reward close teamwork which was actually helpful.

Captures and defends

Give like 1/3rd or less of the current attack rewards as baseline for both attack and defend exp. Upon battle completion, give lump sum equivalent to all the points earned in the SOI/hexes during the battle by the player. Give 75% to winners that left but are in ajacent areas, and 50% if they left completely. Give 25% to losers in ajacent areas, 10% to those who haven't logged or left the continent.

Reasoning: This would only really reward players involved in the fight for the capture, while not overly-penalizing people who left for strategic reasons. Slightly rewards doing a last stand even when it's hopeless.

How to balance this, if needed?

Increase the cost of a cert just slightly, if needed?

How to handle the technical and learning aspects of this?

I don't do compsci, but I think this could be feasible. You'd need to keep a record of when somebody last spawned to compute their value, keep a tally of assist standings, record basic stats of player's actions in their life or in the base hex, and have a timer to award xp to medics whose patients had lived beyond 16s, or fallen short of that somewhat.

Explain to newbies that kills, assists, and base caps are good, and harder targets are worth more. Make xp messages somewhat self explanatory. They don't need to know the formulas to get the gist of it.

/TL;DR

I wrote this on my phone while bored whilst without a computer during double xp week... Sorry for any typos or mistakes. What do y'all think of this?

[kingjameo]

Long time Eve Online players will tell you that their game is a game of knowledge.