So every HA can be an aircraft counter? - Page 5

ZaBa · 2012-07-18, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer

Yeah, I've played. Me and a bunch of friends always find us a hill somewhere along the edge of the map and camp out with spawn beacons and Javelins to pick off helicopters and jets. It's hilarious.

But back on topic though, those pilots who enjoy flying aren't just cruising gently along in the sky, they are raining fiery balls of death and destruction down on all the people who enjoy playing infantry. So to me, theyre fair game, as they should be in Planetside 2 as well.

As a pilot, I have to agree. If an area has a lot of hard AA, that means there are fewer ground focused troops in there (or a lot of HA with their eyes on the sky), which means you pretty much have to call your ground-based friends for support.

That, or get so close to the ground they can't hit you and pick them off yourself. Whichever. Or both! Teamwork AND a challenge, that sounds fun.

e/ But really the important thing here is that HA who are watching the skies are less likely to be watching their backs, making them more susceptible to opposition ground forces (unless they're only taking potshots, in which case they aren't a huge threat).

ParisTeta · 2012-07-18, 07:50 PM

Infantry AA should be powerful enough, to force the attacker from the attack, or risk getting damaged/killed, it should not be a hard counter vs. Air. Infantry AA should be defense first.

If you make infantry AA strong enough as a hard counter, Air Units would become pretty meaningless because the mass will be infantry due vehicle timer, and only infantery can capture.

EDIT: MAX are excluded and should be hard counter, especially with dual aa cannons.

Sephirex · 2012-07-18, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

Infantry AA should be powerful enough, to force the attacker from the attack, or risk getting damaged/killed, it should not be a hard counter vs. Air. Infantry AA should be defense first.

If you make infantry AA strong enough as a hard counter, Air Units would become pretty meaningless because the mass will be infantry due vehicle timer, and only infantery can capture.

I think an AA Max should be a fairly hard counter, as it's AA cannons will be next to worthless against any other target (also no capture), while HA should be a soft counter, since they're fairly flexible.

Broadside · 2012-07-18, 08:28 PM

And on the sixth day, God sayeth "let there be flares".

LegioX · 2012-07-18, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Broadside

And on the sixth day, God sayeth "let there be flares".

I just don't want to have to keep spamming the flare button, b/c im being locked on every 3 sec.

maradine · 2012-07-18, 08:41 PM

Personally, I think that's a better place to be than taking a steady stream of explosive shells in your immediate vicinity.

Look at it this way. If there's a concentration of units with anti-air capability in your operating area, you're in trouble and will be dealing with it. Lock-on, flak, direct-fire, doesn't matter. Some zones are going to be too hot operate in, because the people on the ground made those trade-offs.

Dsent · 2012-07-18, 08:47 PM

My problem is that in PS1 the ceiling cap was so low that there was no safe area in which to dogfight. I understand that I should be susceptible to ground fire and lock-ons if I'm flying low or trying to kills ground targets, but not if I'm high in the sky looking for other aircraft to dogfight. If their is a ceiling cap that is high enough to do this, then by all means leave the AV/AA lockon.

DrifterBG · 2012-07-18, 09:01 PM

Am I the only one that remembers that anyone can use anything?

For those hundreds of missile toting HAs, there will be hundreds of aircraft to shoot at. Use your head, use your maneuverablity, and use the terrain to your advantage.

WorldOfForms · 2012-07-18, 09:19 PM

Lock-on weaponry is the weakest solution to a problem game design-wise, but yet what most astounds me here is:

In PS1 infantry were absolute fodder for aircraft. They finally have a chance at fending off air, and pilots complain?

Guess what: even WITH lockon AA, infantry are still going to be your easy prey. All you have to do is fly behind a mountain and come back from another angle. Most infantry will be distracted by another target by then and you can pick them off.

AA MAXes in PS1 were not much of a threat if you used your brain. Hell, I was a fairly terrible pilot and yet AA never gave me any trouble. Hear a lock beep? Turn and burn. Problem disappears.

Still, I do agree that lockon weapons are lame. Give the infantry a powerful flak weapon instead (and no, the flacklet didn't cut it).

Baneblade · 2012-07-19, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

AA MAXes in PS1 were not much of a threat if you used your brain. Hell, I was a fairly terrible pilot and yet AA never gave me any trouble. Hear a lock beep? Turn and burn. Problem disappears.

If they weren't a significant threat, you wouldn't run when they engaged you.

Xyntech · 2012-07-19, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

If they weren't a significant threat, you wouldn't run when they engaged you.

This. Good AA units got kills off of idiots (which there will be plenty of in a F2P game where every player can pull an aircraft), but AA's true strategic value in PS1 was area denial.

If you were certain that it was only a single guy with a Striker targeting you in PS1, you were generally safe to engage them 1 on 1, but the problem was if you weren't sure what was locking onto you, or if there were multiple lockons. I kind of hope they keep that mechanic for PS2, where you don't know what's locking onto you or how many things are locked on to you at once. You probably won't get a huge number of air kills with a lockon HA AV weapon in PS2, but as long as lockons are a scary enough thing, you'll definitely be able to scare any aircraft away.

TheSaltySeagull · 2012-07-19, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

This. Good AA units got kills off of idiots (which there will be plenty of in a F2P game where every player can pull an aircraft), but AA's true strategic value in PS1 was area denial.

If you were certain that it was only a single guy with a Striker targeting you in PS1, you were generally safe to engage them 1 on 1, but the problem was if you weren't sure what was locking onto you, or if there were multiple lockons. I kind of hope they keep that mechanic for PS2, where you don't know what's locking onto you or how many things are locked on to you at once. You probably won't get a huge number of air kills with a lockon HA AV weapon in PS2, but as long as lockons are a scary enough thing, you'll definitely be able to scare any aircraft away.

You don't get kills or BEP for "area denial".

My issue(hatred) with air cav in PS1 was that they could always escape from ground threats while people on the ground could not escape from air. For example if you are on foot or in a tank etc and a reaver attacks you are pretty much dead. You cant outrun the reaver or kill it unless the pilot is a complete failure. On the reverse side if a reaver gets targeted by an AA max or BFR he just hits space bar and zooms away to safety only to return 30 secs later to again rain down destruction. Or if he is feeling bold he can even bail on top of them with AV and kill them. I never got behind the idea of it was pretty easy for air to kill you but even if you cert heavily into AA the best you could hope for was to "scare away" aircraft unless they just sat there and hover spammed. And even if you did score hits he could just bail and deny you the kill.

In PS2 some of these issues have been addressed such as the bailing issues and infantry and vehicles have access to more effective AA weaponry and the terrain and structures provide better cover against air. And there is the fact that aircraft are harder to fly in general in ps2 rather than the ps1 floating camera. Pilots will have to actually deploy countermeasures and evasive maneuvers to stay alive against ground AA not just laugh at it.

ZaBa · 2012-07-19, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by TheSaltySeagull

You don't get kills or BEP for "area denial".

Depends how the mission system works. Imagine something like "if no more than 25% of our forces in this area are killed by aircraft, mission is successful, points for all friendly players running AA builds". It can't really be that hard to make these kinds of soft scoring systems considering you can find them in 10 year old games (e.g.: Il-2 Sturmovik).

Kills really aren't everything.

e/ If anyone wants to complain that this kind of scoring is open to abuse because of the off chance that people might get points for not killing anything at all on the rare occasion that enemy aircraft completely fail to even show up, kindly refer to my above point regarding kills, and what they are not.

WorldOfForms · 2012-07-19, 04:14 PM

Area denial? Whoop-de-friken-doo.

I don't play an FPS to scare my opponents.

And no, AA wasn't a threat, because after hearing a lock and doing the old turn and burn, all you have to do is creep around, find the AA, ambush it because you have the luxury of using the entire horizon as your cover, and spam it to death.

Buggsy · 2012-07-19, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by ThermalReaper

Thanks TotalBiscuit! You rock!

Like the Liberator 3 player setup, though I'd nerf the nose gun about 20% and buff the tailgun and big cannon about 20%.