So every HA can be an aircraft counter? - Page 5

Sephirex · 2012-07-18, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

Infantry AA should be powerful enough, to force the attacker from the attack, or risk getting damaged/killed, it should not be a hard counter vs. Air. Infantry AA should be defense first.

If you make infantry AA strong enough as a hard counter, Air Units would become pretty meaningless because the mass will be infantry due vehicle timer, and only infantery can capture.

I think an AA Max should be a fairly hard counter, as it's AA cannons will be next to worthless against any other target (also no capture), while HA should be a soft counter, since they're fairly flexible.

LegioX · 2012-07-18, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer

Thats not an argument against lock on though.

I just don't want lockon (for ground units) to be so frecking annoying. Ever played a 64 conquest map on BF 3 with jets? Just with 32 people on 1 side can have your plane being locked on constantly. Like every sec you enter warzone you have to leave b/c you are being locked on by 3-5 guys. Imagine that with 2000 players on a map? Makes me cringe.

I know it will never happen, but take out lockon completely for HA. Let the pilots (who enjoy flying) be able to fight it out over the skies and give them the sense of helping out the overall war.

EisenKreutzer · 2012-07-18, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by LegioX

I just don't want lockon (for ground units) to be so frecking annoying. Ever played a 64 conquest map on BF 3 with jets? Just with 32 people on 1 side can have your plane being locked on constantly. Like every sec you enter warzone you have to leave b/c you are being locked on by 3-5 guys. Imagine that with 2000 players on a map? Makes me cringe.

I know it will never happen, but take out lockon completely for HA. Let the pilots (who enjoy flying) be able to fight it out over the skies and give them the sense of helping out the overall war.

Yeah, I've played. Me and a bunch of friends always find us a hill somewhere along the edge of the map and camp out with spawn beacons and Javelins to pick off helicopters and jets. It's hilarious.

But back on topic though, those pilots who enjoy flying aren't just cruising gently along in the sky, they are raining fiery balls of death and destruction down on all the people who enjoy playing infantry. So to me, theyre fair game, as they should be in Planetside 2 as well.

LegioX · 2012-07-18, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer

Yeah, I've played. Me and a bunch of friends always find us a hill somewhere along the edge of the map and camp out with spawn beacons and Javelins to pick off helicopters and jets. It's hilarious.

But back on topic though, those pilots who enjoy flying aren't just cruising gently along in the sky, they are raining fiery balls of death and destruction down on all the people who enjoy playing infantry. So to me, theyre fair game, as they should be in Planetside 2 as well.

Isnt that what certs are for then? Pilots who cert their planes to be air-to-ground aircraft will get owned by pilots who cert their planes to be air-to-air aircraft. I don't see the problem.

Just like in real war, ground guys will be getting pounded by air-to-ground aircraft over a certain point of attack or defense. They call for help, then a group of cert out air-to-air planes show up and clear the skies. That right there is teamwork. Ground units should only have Max's to fight off enemy air. If you don't have that, call in airsupport. Simple.

Accuser · 2012-07-18, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by ThermalReaper

I doubt you would have enough flairs to avoid every missile. Unless missiles aren't an instant kill to aircrafts.(It took 3-4 AT shots to take out a vanguard according to the video)

I think you'll have enough Flairs. You'll probably have plenty of flares too.

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

I shat myself. Hopefully one can cert up to carry HA+AV.

Of course not. Heavy Assault chooses to take either MCG/Lasher/Noobhammer or a weaker anti-infantry weapon with a rocket launcher. It's a similar choice to Infiltrators who take either the best cloaking device or a sniper rifle.

ZaBa · 2012-07-18, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer

Yeah, I've played. Me and a bunch of friends always find us a hill somewhere along the edge of the map and camp out with spawn beacons and Javelins to pick off helicopters and jets. It's hilarious.

But back on topic though, those pilots who enjoy flying aren't just cruising gently along in the sky, they are raining fiery balls of death and destruction down on all the people who enjoy playing infantry. So to me, theyre fair game, as they should be in Planetside 2 as well.

As a pilot, I have to agree. If an area has a lot of hard AA, that means there are fewer ground focused troops in there (or a lot of HA with their eyes on the sky), which means you pretty much have to call your ground-based friends for support.

That, or get so close to the ground they can't hit you and pick them off yourself. Whichever. Or both! Teamwork AND a challenge, that sounds fun.

e/ But really the important thing here is that HA who are watching the skies are less likely to be watching their backs, making them more susceptible to opposition ground forces (unless they're only taking potshots, in which case they aren't a huge threat).

EisenKreutzer · 2012-07-18, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by LegioX

Isnt that what certs are for then? Pilots who cert their planes to be air-to-ground aircraft will get owned by pilots who cert their planes to be air-to-air aircraft. I don't see the problem.

Just like in real war, ground guys will be getting pounded by air-to-ground aircraft over a certain point of attack or defense. They call for help, then a group of cert out air-to-air planes show up and clear the skies. That right there is teamwork. Ground units should only have Max's to fight off enemy air. If you don't have that, call in airsupport. Simple.

No, I think the HA AV capabilities should stay. Anything that keeps pilots on their toes is good, and ground troops should be able to defend themselves from airborne threats as well as ground threats. Air-support will not always be available, and air superiority should not be a hard counter to ground forces.

You can't hardwire teamplay into the game. It has to emerge organically through the choices people make within the game.

LegioX · 2012-07-18, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer

No, I think the HA AV capabilities should stay. Anything that keeps pilots on their toes is good, and ground troops should be able to defend themselves from airborne threats as well as ground threats. Air-support will not always be available, and air superiority should not be a hard counter to ground forces.

You can't hardwire teamplay into the game. It has to emerge organically through the choices people make within the game.

Well for example, WW2OL has combined inf/air game. Only thing ground troops had to defend were aa guns. Inf did not have anything else. They had to rely 90% of the time on air power over target. That forces cooperation between ground/air to have an successful attack or defense. In my experience, if you force players to "team up" everything else will fall into place.

Broadside · 2012-07-18, 08:28 PM

And on the sixth day, God sayeth "let there be flares".

LegioX · 2012-07-18, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Broadside

And on the sixth day, God sayeth "let there be flares".

I just don't want to have to keep spamming the flare button, b/c im being locked on every 3 sec.

maradine · 2012-07-18, 08:41 PM

Personally, I think that's a better place to be than taking a steady stream of explosive shells in your immediate vicinity.

Look at it this way. If there's a concentration of units with anti-air capability in your operating area, you're in trouble and will be dealing with it. Lock-on, flak, direct-fire, doesn't matter. Some zones are going to be too hot operate in, because the people on the ground made those trade-offs.

Dsent · 2012-07-18, 08:47 PM

My problem is that in PS1 the ceiling cap was so low that there was no safe area in which to dogfight. I understand that I should be susceptible to ground fire and lock-ons if I'm flying low or trying to kills ground targets, but not if I'm high in the sky looking for other aircraft to dogfight. If their is a ceiling cap that is high enough to do this, then by all means leave the AV/AA lockon.

DrifterBG · 2012-07-18, 09:01 PM

Am I the only one that remembers that anyone can use anything?

For those hundreds of missile toting HAs, there will be hundreds of aircraft to shoot at. Use your head, use your maneuverablity, and use the terrain to your advantage.

WorldOfForms · 2012-07-18, 09:19 PM

Lock-on weaponry is the weakest solution to a problem game design-wise, but yet what most astounds me here is:

In PS1 infantry were absolute fodder for aircraft. They finally have a chance at fending off air, and pilots complain?

Guess what: even WITH lockon AA, infantry are still going to be your easy prey. All you have to do is fly behind a mountain and come back from another angle. Most infantry will be distracted by another target by then and you can pick them off.

AA MAXes in PS1 were not much of a threat if you used your brain. Hell, I was a fairly terrible pilot and yet AA never gave me any trouble. Hear a lock beep? Turn and burn. Problem disappears.

Still, I do agree that lockon weapons are lame. Give the infantry a powerful flak weapon instead (and no, the flacklet didn't cut it).

Timithos · 2012-07-18, 10:43 PM

So what I noticed in the video was AA rockets hitting buildings and rocks. I noticed TB giving up on shots on aircraft because of them flying out of view (because buildings/objects would explode the rocket). I noticed there is a delay for both AA & AV lock.

I also noticed on this map that things are much more "taller and clustered." In PS1 you had buildings that were 3-4 stories tops. Here you have buildings that seem to be 10 stories tall and clustered tighter together with rock columns, providing more cover for aircraft from ground attacks. It looks like AA infantry has to find positions of height and good, open sky view to be more effective.

I noticed TB launching AV shots from the roof of a building both in direct fire and lock-on. His lock-on the Mag was a much slower shot.

As I read and watch video discussion of certs, you'll be able to cert everything on one character given enough time. However, what you can carry is limited. So it looks like just like in PS1, you can only carry two big items with Heavy Armor (HA) (Rifle + Launcher) . As I see in the video, you get a AA/AV launcher. I would hope you also could have a more powerful AA-only launcher, and a more powerful AV-only launcher. And if you want the AA/AV launcher you have to cert both, which doesn't sound like a big deal in doing that.

The certs sound so more complex that I wouldn't be surprised if you had to also cert lock-on (multiple cert levels), AND additionally fire-and-forget (more multiple cert levels). Certing for some of that "delta-v" and "gimbel" talk sounds really cool too. And certs to avoid objects better: lock, aim away into open sky, fire, forget. It sounds like they have plans for complex certing like this, but it's not all making it into beta or launch.

The highest Battle Rank (BR) I saw was 4, so there's no telling what the players could unlock. But it looked like from the weapon and vehicle term selections that the devs already unlocked certs for the players to fool around with similar to at E3. I don't think you could do all the things that TB was able to do right out of the gate.

Also, it looked like the devs made their character load-outs preset, and more powerful then normal spawn load-outs. They avoided them spending in-game time setting up their load-outs.

As in PS1 I'm not for air being the only hard-counter for air. It looks like 1 HA AV infantry doesn't much of a chance with air other then to scare them away with lock warnings. 2-3 HA AV infantry though aught to take aircraft out. All air is vtols by the way, so you can chase down infantry much better then jets.