TTK: Like it faster, or Slower?

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Vancha

I have no idea what you just said.

Why does TTK become insignificant with more people in a fight? Why would more people be shooting a MAX? Why does he only get .1 second? Why is it a 1v5?

Assuming the choke scenario- He's a larger target, he does more damage, he keeps you from killing the people behind him.

Originally Posted by Vancha

If it takes a person 25 seconds to kill a MAX and a MAX takes 4 seconds to kill a person, then he'll only be able to kill one person in a 1v5. If you raise that to 50 seconds and 8 seconds, you've increased the TTK but the MAX will still only kill one person before it dies.

For this scenario the MAX has 200 hp and does 50 dps. Hes is facing 5 targets with 100 hp each and each do 20 dps. So it takes 2 seconds for him to die and kill 1 person.

Increasing the TTK (across the board so 1 second more for a MAX and 1 more for 1 target, via hp not dps) by one second we get 300 hp for the max and 150 hp for each infantry. The max will still only get one kill, but the infantry now have 600 hp remaining, instead of only 400, making those infantry(and medics) 50% more effective while not changing anything for the max.

But I'm bad at maths.

[Top Sgt]

Originally Posted by Espion

That's sort of the point in a team based game. Killing is not always the best option, nor is staying alive always the best option. With longer TTKs you have the option to choose which route benefits your team/squad/etc the most, and that adds to both the depth and skill ceiling of the game.

negative it should not take an entire mag to drop someone even in a team based game (which I have been playing since the early 2000's by the way.

I am far from a kill whore in games.. I'd rather be the guy who keep his squad moving and objective objective objective

But come on in the video it already took half to 3/4 the mag to drop a guy.. and you want even longer than that? All your gonna end up getting is players all chosing max's and heavy assault with chainguns due to how many bullets it takes to actually kill someone etc. Do you want a game where everyone is clamoring to that?

In the video it seemed just right.. it took more than a quick burst and plenty of times people being hit e-gressed to cover after being hit etc.

Alot of skill involved in these games is just getting yourself into a great position to fire on your opfor before they have the ability to find cover or react.. not alot of skill in mouse aiming now a days.

I do not want a halo where people are jet packing into line of fire knowing it takes so much to kill them etc.. I also do not want hardcore TTK either where 1 to 2 bullets kill.

In these videos it looks like5-7 bullets are needed to hit. which is fine

[waldizzo]

I liked how fast the combat was in the GDC video, but think that the TTK should be raised just a bit. I think players should be able to at least try to make an aggressive move without being killed instantly. Will see in beta for sure though.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

Assuming the choke scenario- He's a larger target, he does more damage, he keeps you from killing the people behind him.

This would seem to apply regardless of the TTK...?

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

For this scenario the MAX has 200 hp and does 50 dps. Hes is facing 5 targets with 100 hp each and each do 20 dps. So it takes 2 seconds for him to die and kill 1 person.

Increasing the TTK (across the board so 1 second more for a MAX and 1 more for 1 target, via hp not dps) by one second we get 300 hp for the max and 150 hp for each infantry. The max will still only get one kill, but the infantry now have 600 hp remaining, instead of only 400, making those infantry(and medics) 50% more effective while not changing anything for the max.

What do you mean 50% more effective? By increasing the TTK by 1 second you gave both the troops and the MAX 50% more health. They were both "50% more effective", that's why the results were the same. The MAXs have made no less significant an impact...

[Espion]

Originally Posted by Top Sgt

negative it should not take an entire mag to drop someone even in a team based game (which I have been playing since the early 2000's by the way.

I am far from a kill whore in games.. I'd rather be the guy who keep his squad moving and objective objective objective

But come on in the video it already took half to 3/4 the mag to drop a guy.. and you want even longer than that? All your gonna end up getting is players all chosing max's and heavy assault with chainguns due to how many bullets it takes to actually kill someone etc. Do you want a game where everyone is clamoring to that?

In the video it seemed just right.. it took more than a quick burst and plenty of times people being hit e-gressed to cover after being hit etc.

Alot of skill involved in these games is just getting yourself into a great position to fire on your opfor before they have the ability to find cover or react.. not alot of skill in mouse aiming now a days.

I do not want a halo where people are jet packing into line of fire knowing it takes so much to kill them etc.. I also do not want hardcore TTK either where 1 to 2 bullets kill.

In these videos it looks like5-7 bullets are needed to hit. which is fine

"hardcore" is not 1-2 bullets. The hardcore modes in games like CoD are about as casual and carebear as you can get. There is absolutely no skill requirement to kill someone in that short of time, you just spray and win, camp and win, see the guy first and win, etc. No real fighting at all.

If it takes near an entire clip there is an actual requirement for aim, leading, and tracking. If you have a clip size of 30 and it takes 25 shots to kill someone, the higher skill player will win every time because they will try to get the kill without having to reload, where as the bad player will spray and put themselves at a huge disadvantage with reload time.

Lower TTK favours bad players, and anything that favours bad players helps good players even more. If an average player can walk into a room and down 4 players in one clip, what do you think an above average player will be able to do? The proper way is to raise the skill ceiling so that all players always feel like they have something to work on and improve, rather than having a low cap that average players can easily reach and get bored at.

[Coreldan]

But not all of us want to utilize the aiming skills only. I prefer using the skills that that make the difference in a low TTK situation.

Both low and high TTK games require plenty of skill, it's just a different set of skills. Just that once you fuck up in a low TTK game, you leet aiming skills wont save you anymore. The skill is in not getting to the situation where you get shot first/shot without cover. People who don't play this games regularly or just play them "wrong", that equals to camping, but I never camp in those games either.

Apart from any skill discussion, IMO high TTK is just mind numbingly boring and makes the games feel extremely arcade and pointless. The reason I mainly did support roles in Planetside was the horrible gunplay (TTK wasnt the only reason, but also horrible netcode + ADAD as well as playing from Europe to Gemini).

I don't want this "higher skill cealing" when it makes the gunplay boring and horrible for me.

Opinions are like assholes, etc, etc.

That said, I think CS will fall into the category of low TTK game. I believe thats one of the.. ehm.. more popular e-sports platforms. Have you tried going against those players cos after all they are most likely just bad players who win by spraying and camping? (That said, CS isnt anywhere near the tactical shooter I like to play, but an example of a low TTK game where there sure as fuck is plenty of skill involved)

[Espion]

Originally Posted by Coreldan

But not all of us want to utilize the aiming skills only. I prefer using the skills that that make the difference in a low TTK situation.

Those skills not only apply to both, but apply more to a higher TTK situation. Unless you're somehow counting camping as a skill...?

Originally Posted by Coreldan

(That said, CS isnt anywhere near the tactical shooter I like to play, but an example of a low TTK game where there sure as fuck is plenty of skill involved)

It's not really right to compare them since there's no respawn in CS. That makes such a massive difference.


I hate to direct this argument directly at you, but it sounds like you only hated the gunplay because you weren't good at it. I'm all for having dedicated support roles and think that adds a lot to a game, but if you thought the actual fighting in PS was boring then you probably just weren't willing to push yourself to improve, which I suspect is the case for a lot of people advocating low TTKs and 3-4shot kills. The TTKs weren't even that long in PS, heavy weapon had theoretical TTKs between 0.5-1s on agiles, and players from top outfits could easily down 3 or more in one clip. It really doesn't need to be any shorter than that...

The great thing about PS was that is catered to a wide range of players. If you wanted to push yourself to be a top dueler that option was there, or if you wanted nothing to do with that you could just fly a gal. That's what happens when you cater towards the top end of gameplay. If you cater towards the lower end, you're left with severely limited options due to the low skill ceiling.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by waldizzo

I liked how fast the combat was in the GDC video, but think that the TTK should be raised just a bit. I think players should be able to at least try to make an aggressive move without being killed instantly. Will see in beta for sure though.

Indeed, initiative should not be punished.


In World of Tanks, a very fast - often even instant - TTK happens whenever you get detected. Since you can't respawn there, this can lead to complete stop of any movement on either team whatsoever and people just sit in bushes waiting for the other to make the first move.

It paralyzes gameplay, creates camping and can be very frustrating.


Of course, in PS2, you will be able to respawn so it's not as big an influence and hiding probably won't be as effective either (won't disappear from sight). Still, it will influence the willingness of people (as mentioned in the K/D thread) to perform risky actions.

In PS1 risk was high enough to expose yourself when encountering a large group of people.

In the footage we saw sofar, only a fraction of total players was playing who'd be present in such a situation. If it takes so short to take someone out, how will a 10 vs 20 fight work out? It's only a 1:2 ratio, but the faster the TTK, the bigger the leverage of the bigger group and the smaller the impact of individual skill (IMO), and the greater the need to split this large enemy group up.

Sure, you could argue you will diminish enemy ranks faster in theory, as long as they don't hit you as you kill them faster as well. However, you can't absorb any damage in the PS2 situation and you will get flanked and overwhelmed much sooner due to the jetpack infantry exposing your weak sides more easily.

[DayOne]

Originally Posted by Espion

If it takes near an entire clip there is an actual requirement for aim, leading, and tracking. If you have a clip size of 30 and it takes 25 shots to kill someone, the higher skill player will win every time because they will try to get the kill without having to reload, where as the bad player will spray and put themselves at a huge disadvantage with reload time.

What's so great about being able to put in soo much time into a game that you are only good because you've trained yourself to being incredibly accurate.

If anything this style of game play is even more mindless than CoD. Games like Arma are good because they force you to think about what you are doing and how not to get killed.

High TTKs WILL turn away new and casual players. A very, very bad thing in an MMO

[TekDragon]

After finally watching Part 3 I can say that my enthusiasm for this game has diminished greatly. People dying in .5 second weapon bursts from medium range? Really?

Higby had no time to do anything before dying, and the people he was shooting didn't have any time to react before going down.

Zero strategy, zero skill, zero effort.

I don't care how much strategy they put into the game from a macro RTS perspective, if the combat on the ground means you either:

A) Camp and kill people in .5 seconds
B) Advance and die in .5 seconds to someone you don't even see before you're dead

I'll take my money elsewhere, to a game that doesn't try to desperately emulate CoD "hardcore newb" mode.

[Coreldan]

Originally Posted by Espion

Those skills not only apply to both, but apply more to a higher TTK situation. Unless you're somehow counting camping as a skill...?

It's not really right to compare them since there's no respawn in CS. That makes such a massive difference.

I hate to direct this argument directly at you, but it sounds like you only hated the gunplay because you weren't good at it. I'm all for having dedicated support roles and think that adds a lot to a game, but if you thought the actual fighting in PS was boring then you probably just weren't willing to push yourself to improve, which I suspect is the case for a lot of people advocating low TTKs and 3-4shot kills.

Well, in PS's case I suppose one of the bigger problems was the latency. A decent player with one third of my ping should just about never lose a gunfight to me. In addition, the netcode was horrible. I mean, I guess it's OK if you like doing those ADAD shootouts, to me it's not fun. It has nothing to do with not being good at it, it just isnt the type of gameplay I prefer. I like tactical shooters more, and as I said, I don't camp, I never do. Thats a huge generalization people who advocate high TTKs (see what I did there, quoted you almost!) often do.

The boring part is the long gunfights with the ADAD spamming. I compete in practical shooting in real life and am a generally speaking a milsim-like game fan and like realism. Long ADAD gunfights have nothing to do with any of that.

As said, just personal preference.

You use some highly stereotyping examples there. Like the camping. It's like I would say about a high TTK game that it's just no skill arcade where you can run in the open all you want with no risk as long as you can keep the crosshair on the enemy or something along that lines. I respect high TTK games though, I just realize they arnt my cup of tea

That said, the current TTK of PS2 is nowhere near realistic or even very low, but I dont even want it lower seeing the nature of the game. It's far higher than the usual games I play, but seeing the scale I think it seems fairly good.

And no, camping isn't a skill, but to think low TTK games at high levels are only about camping and spraying is fucking ignorant too.

I'm off to sleep now, these posts are probably buried under a dozen pages by the time and wake up and most likely wont even remember the existance of this discussion, so don't wonder if I dont further come back. That said I dont think theres anything left to say, these things are up to personal preference, utilize different sets of skills and I'm pretty sure theres a reason why high TTK games are a dying breed after the early 2000s. Most people just don't overly care even if the skill cap might or might not be a tad higher, I guess I'm not the only one who isnt overly fond of the long ADAD fights. Good night.

[TekDragon]

And I seriously doubt all the "But dying in .5 seconds is REALISTIC!" are actually going to ever be infantry.

I'd put money that these are air-whore and tank-whore players that plan on sitting in their armor and air (with massive TTK on them, ironically enough) and hoping they can laugh their asses to the XP bank getting 1-shot kills everywhere from long range.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by DayOne

High TTKs WILL turn away new and casual players. A very, very bad thing in an MMO

Let's see if we can't turn that around a bit.

The shorter the TTK, the more they'll think "Okay... I was completely unable to do anything at all... Fun..." as well.

In that sense, the more time they get to adapt, the more time they have to learn what is killing them, why and what they can do to avoid it.


Look at world of tanks, people get one shot continuously in lower tiers. They have absolutely no chance to learn how to avoid fire, how to position etc.

I can guarantee you that any PS1 player with some vehicle practice gets much higher winrates than those of regular players. In fact, all PS players I've played with in WoT (around 20) have average winrates between 52-60%, where 48% is the mean average (2-3% draws, 48% loss) in random matches where you are team dependent more than individual skill dependent.

Platoon with other PS players and your winrate goes to 60-75% even if they use fragile units that can be easiyl shot. Why? Experience. Positioning. Timing. Insight. Coordination.



And... Patience.


Patience to wait for the appropriate opportunity to take out someone with a higher TTK than you is a very valuable trait. If TTK is low and respawn is fast, patience is not taught.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by Figment

Let's see if we can't turn that around a bit.

The shorter the TTK, the more they'll think "Okay... I was completely unable to do anything at all... Fun..." as well.

This.

Low TTK means that the only players who stick around are the ones who just want mindless run & gun. People who to play tactically, strategically, or as a team are left frustrated as their options in combat go down to whatever they can accomplish in .5 seconds.

[DayOne]

@Figment, you can't go to either extreme. Both are bad, it's getting the right balance that will make this game good.