Is your SUV killing innocent people?

[Navaron]

Neccesity breeds invention. Automakers will make what sells. There is no oil shortage and there is not reason to make an engine that runs more efficiently because todays engines are INCREDIBILY efficient. If ever car got 35 mpg, even the SUVs, then how much would you save a month, maybe 80 bucks? That won't pay for the incredible cost of the technology that would make it happen.

[MrVicchio]

The left continually redefines ethics for political expediency. That emotional component results because they are impervious to facts. Consider the following SUV myths:


1. Myth: SUVs are killing people at rate comparable to bubonic plague, slamming into small vehicles, causing death and dismemberment, and probably on purpose. Fact: If you're killed in a small car, it's probably because another small car hit you. 56% of all small-car fatalities involved only small cars. 46% of small car fatalities occurred when the driver hit something other than a another vehicle. Only 1% (that's 136 of 12,144 small car deaths) involved small car collisions with BOTH mid-size cars and SUVs. Small cars make up 9.3% of the cars on the road, but are involved in 53% of all accidents and 37% of all traffic fatalities. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's director says, "If you want to solve the safety puzzle, get rid of small cars."

2. Myth: Small cars pollute less than big cars. Fact: The federal standards are the same for all cars and the regs are written in "grams per mile," not grams per gallon. No matter what the size of the car or its engine, it cannot pollute more than the federal-per-mile standards.

3. Myth: SUVs weigh more and have bigger engines. A Lincoln Town Car with a V-8 engine enjoys no wrath from the anti-SUVites despite its weight being nearly the same as or more than most SUVs. A Suburban is about 100 pounds more than a Tahoe but is perceived as more evil.

4. Myth: SUV drivers are more reckless and likely to violate the law. Fact: SUV drivers are the wimps of the road. Their profile: they make over $100,000 each year and many don't even know how to get their SUVs into four-wheel drive. The greatest risk for accidents, traffic violations, and fatalities comes from unlicensed drivers, not SUV drivers who are not only licensed and insured drivers, but also Einstein-Bagels-frequent-buyer-card carriers. If we really want to prevent fatal accidents we should simply wear seat belts.

The Sierra Club once referred to SUVs as "the Joe Camel of the auto industry," meaning that the SUV is the emotional focal point that puts an industry at the mercy of moralizing fussbudgets who seek zero population growth, mass transit, and cars powered ala Fred Flintstone.

The die is cast. False facts and emotion mean SUVs are under siege until we all paddle around in Neons. My family of six and I will require four blessed small cars (with air bags children can't ride in the front) to travel congested highways sans SUVs. But heaven awaits us.

[Unregistered]

Oil Companies have a history of buying up and supressing new technology for alternate sources of power. They have no need to make cleaner, cheaper fuel.

When they have a need for it they will make it.

[Airlift]

I was wondering how long it would take the GDub fans to come in here and bash me for touting social responsibility. Well, you called down the thunder so now you got it.

First, let's address my 'Typical Liberal Attitude', then we'll come back to the issue of SUVs.

You put the following words into my mouth:

You DONT DESERVE to be driving an SUV, get back in the VEHICLE WE say is right

It has nothing to do with what you do or don't DESERVE. Perhaps you didn't comprehend my argument or maybe you're trying to take it down to an easier position to combat. Either way is way off base. Social responsibility isn't a political convention, its a basic understanding that the things we do have an impact on those around us and on those who will come behind us to walk the earth. Oh lord, I'm such a pinko because I try to respect the fact that our planet is packed with other people whose opinions and actions carry as much weight as my own.

Now then, we move on to the Good Ole American Way...

This is AMERICA, atleast where I am, and in America, if you can afford to drive a full sized SUV, I don't care if you are a 4'9" single woman living in downtown Chiago, thats your FREAKING right, to pursue your idea of HAPPINESS anyway you want as long as you arent breaking the law.. and since buying, owning and driving SUV's is LEGAL.. WOOT rock on baby.

Like I've said repeatedly in this very thread, you do have those freedoms. You can buy a fleet of SUVs and run them all at the same time. So can the Soccer Mom and the single driver in Chicago. I wasn't talking about what's LEGAL or ILLEGAL. I was talking about what is RESPONSIBLE and IRRESPONSIBLE. It appears that we're having a problem differentiating.

I'll lump your infinite oil argument in with my forthcoming response to Navaron, but it doesn't matter how often you throw the words LIBERAL and ELITEST and various other ALL-CAPS terms, you're not going to pull this debate into the political arena. It about BASIC CONSIDERATION for your fellow man.

[Navaron]

"Oil Companies have a history of buying up and supressing new technology for alternate sources of power."

And they ship those technologies away in black helicopters flown by elvis to area 51 right? I'd like to see proof.

[Airlift]

I was about to respond to Navaron's arguments when I read Mr.Vicchio's Myths and Facts. I attest that you made every one of those up. You attribute the Myths to the LEFT and heap slander on top of them. Give me a break, can your argument get any more spurrious?

How about you cite your sources or stop inventing myths, facts, and statistics.

[Navaron]

First off, for a guy whose so adamant on confronting ideas, meet ONE of mine. Address it and prove it wrong. I also never used the word liberal or elite (i think). My political affiliations has little to do with you or my opinions. You can not know what I think because my voter registration says republican, and do not assume to.

Your social responsability is based on flawed logic. I am all for making the world a better place, and the fact is SUV's do that. They keep more people around and alive and have the exact same emision standards that all cars meet.

You need to point out for me where and how driving an suv is irresponsable, or morally appauling. I don't think you can show that driving a SUV violates "basic consideration" for your fellow man.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Airlift
I was about to respond to Navaron's arguments when I read Mr.Vicchio's Myths and Facts. I attest that you made every one of those up. You attribute the Myths to the LEFT and heap slander on top of them. Give me a break, can your argument get any more spurrious?

How about you cite your sources or stop inventing myths, facts, and statistics.

Talk about the thunder, I will, gimmie a min to go dig them all up, as a matter of fact, I DIDN'T write that.
But, I DID leave out where I got it, and ya know why? Cause I wanted to see if you what you would do. And you did, sadly as I expected.

You didn't find anything to refute it, just denied it all without a THOUGHT about maybe seeing if some of these facts were true.. and thus maybe you might alter your perception on the issue.

I do my homework, you don't. Facts Vs. Myth, and ATM, Fact is on my side. I am enjoying this tremendously, but please, for future sake, dont ever callme a liar agian unles you can back up your assertions that what I have posted as a fact is otherwise.

Thanx.

[Doobz]

America has a capatalist, free enterprise economy, where the public controls the factors of production, and the country is based upon freedome of choice, speech and all that.

well, the SUV isnt a dangerous, harmful, illegal product correct? so let the consumers choose, they have a right to in this country, and the retailers and suppliers have a right to supply any product that is not physically harmful or misleading

[Navaron]

I have to say, I heard most of mine on the radio today or read it in one of my papers. Regardless, it's true whether you believe it or not. I don't think you were confronting my facts anyway, but if you were trying to, then there ya go.

It would seem that your hat has fallen around your ears, you refute what I and Vic have said, yet have not *once* opposed a direct fact. It would appear to the onlooker like you have little arguement aside from personal sentiment. If you would be willing to confront any fact or post of mine, then I will gladly engage you, otherwise, I have little time for "well you don't know what you are talking about". If you wish to debate, then do so. Otherwise, I will call it a night.

[Navaron]

I like you airlift - you made my cool sig - "I was about to respond to Navaron's arguments " - well please do so.

[Hamma]

/me locks

[Navaron]

Hey!!! It's a free lounge, we have rights you know!!! (I know I know).

[MrVicchio]

ROFL Hamma...

/locks Haha.. eh wait.. he can do that can't he... ACK No don't dont! Thats not fair! :P

[Airlift]

I hadn't even gotten to you yet, Navaron. But since you're so eager, I will address your points.

First off, safety - If it's a safety issue where people in cars are killed more often than those in SUVs, why go to the lowest common denominator? I doubt anyone will question that people are safer in suvs, so why not get rid of cars? If everyone drives an SUV, then alot more people will be safe. You are 5 times more likely to survive a head on crash in an SUV than in a economy class car.

Except for pedestrians, cyclists, animals or anything else in the path of that Hummer over there. Nobody important tho.

My boss was in a wreck last week. He drives an old honda accord. He was hit by a lady in a Jeep Liberty. The liberty is a small suv. He pulled out in front of her, as she was about 10 feet away. He is in the ICU, and still unconcious and will not walk for a year. The lady had to get stitched in her hand. His vehicle is totaled, hers is not. I would want my wife and mother in an SUV.

First let me say that I'm sorry for your boss, he will be in my prayers. It is a shame that he was in an accident with an SUV. If he had pulled out in front of a Ford Fiesta, the outcome may have been different. That's kind of my point when I was mentioning the auto arms race. There is a big difference between making a car stronger and making it bigger, and it doesn't take an engineer to realize that. If you really cared about safety you would put your wife and mother in a volvo. I would put Vicchio's 6 kids in a Volvo wagon. Not only have they been consistently among the safest cars on the road, they don't roll over when their tires have problems.

Secondly, Gas mileage compared to a car. An suv hold many more people than does a honda or saturn. I say that people who drive 2 seaters are doing worse than people who seat 8. I know the arguement that is coming. Well those soccer moms only drive by themselves and don't need the space. Whose right is it to say what they can drive and who they should have travel with them.

You defeat your own argument here, and I agree with you that the vast majority of SUV owners don't need the space (or the offroad capabilities). Then you jump back to the issue of whether an SUV owner has a right to blah blah blah which I never argued against. See above posts please.

Third, Polution. The polution idea is a myth. Scientist have proven time and time again that global warming is a hoax.

WTF are you talking about? Note please that Pollution != global warming. I haven't argued either side on the issue of global warming, but we're talking about SUVs here, not whether or not the ice caps are melting. If you are saying that pollution is a myth then I don't think we're going to find commonality to agree on anything. If you think pollution is a myth, then either you've never been to or never been out of a big city. If you mean that it is a myth that SUVs produce more pollution than smaller cars with smaller engines, then you are overgeneralizing the issue anyway because it has at least as much to do with maintenance as it does with the vehicle itself.

Fact: there is less polution today than there was 8 years ago? Why? We haven't implemented any drastic laws? Hell polution standards have lessened. Because we are as mighty as we thought. Think of the most weird gross thing we as humans can make. It comes from the earth, so when it returns is it any suprise that nature finds it's own balance.

Here you seem to be arguing that since we're not mighty enough to destroy the earth by pollution that it is fine to pollute as much as we want. The thing is, the earth will go on and few people question that. The real question is will humanity go on along with it. That answer sure as shit isn't clear, but if we're going to destroy ourselves as a species, it won't likely be death by SUV.

Oil is not a limited resource. Ocean oil wells that were drained 30 years ago are now 2-6% full again. Again, we have a problem with arrogance. We think we can come in and just stop nature and all of its proccesses.

This is true in a sense, but not how you're calling it. Oil is not a renewable energy source, and I invite you to prove that it is. However, if and when we die off and millions more years pass, there will be lots of new fossil fuels for the next dominant species.

Finally, we need a "this is not a car" lesson. People are as stupid as you seem to think. It is obvious that the vehicle is not a car. People who buy them are affluent enough to purchase them, therefore have enough foresight to notice that detail.

Right, because wealth is a measure of intelligence. No wait, it isn't.

This is all a sumation of class envy. People who don't have them, hate those that do. It's just like cell phones. People who don't have one can't stand them. I don't have an SUV or a Cell phone. I drive a 94 honda civic that gets 33 mpg. I don't resent suv drivers. I also plan on getting a Bentley WX which gets 8mpg.

This is a priceless gem and I'm really glad you asked me to go point by point thru your post. I can afford an SUV. However, as I am single and have no children, I chose to purchase a sports car, which I primarily use to go back and forth to work. I don't resent people in SUVs. If I was a safari guide I would drive one. I think they are ridiculous in cities and suburbs. That's where I came in on this debate and that is where I'll leave it.

P.S. I have a cell phone and I still don't like yours.