Airlift, or was it Les.. yeah Lex.. this is for you.. - Page 5

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered
These studies fail to take into concideration the amount of time that Whites/Blacks/Hispanics have been in the U.S.

I will a gree that whites poesses more money then Blacks, but far more blacks imigrate into this country every year then whites. Same goes for hispanics.

I like your line of thinking here. So you are suggesting your family history plays a large part in determining your economic status.

Well lets look at the history of whites and blacks in America. Hmm, by your line of thinking that takes your families history in account, I would say that Blacks have been handicapped just a bit more than whites. AA is there to adress that handicap.

MrVicchio · 2003-01-15, 07:52 PM

I appologize if putting your nick in the subject line offended ya, and I wont do it again.

Secondly, Iam not argueing your ploitics as a whole, rather a single view point. I think if you hit the RIGHT subjects, you might me far more liberal then you might believe.

Back to the topic :P

AA was started to help people out that needed help. As for those numbers posted.. Your source is biased and thus /ignore I DID read it, but the UN is a BS orginazation that if it rEALLY cared woudln't be lambasting America for its "racial inequality" rather it would be inAfrica trying to fix REAL problems. Poor people in America are still better off then most poor people anywhere else in the world. Here atleast, they have a chance at a future, in most places.. your screwed.

Airlift · 2003-01-15, 07:58 PM

It isn't offensive, it's annoying. And my point was that you aren't arguing my politics at all, you're arguing politics suddenly attributed to me and I didn't like it. I do appreciate that you care enough not to do it again.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 07:59 PM

Unregistered.

Your opinion is perfectly valid.

There is nothing wrong with an approach that looks only at the individual and their performance. I have been terming this the survival of the fittest approach. This is where where the highest performer wins.

I just think that that is a bit cut throat for me, and I prefer the approach that adresses a racial socio-economic inequality.

Neither is right or wrong. It comes down to your preference (these preferences are often self serving but there is nothing necessartily wrong with that either).

Now it gets kind of fishy if you want to both address social inequality between the races, and you want to put the focus primarily on the individual. The second defeats the first.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 08:00 PM

BTW, Mr. Vicchio I am still waiting on your numbers.

Navaron · 2003-01-15, 08:04 PM

WTF??? My 50+ weren't enough???????????????

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 08:04 PM

And Mr Viccchio, the report was on HDI comparisons between different countries. There was a section that included relevant numbers and commentary on racial break down (as any good Standard of living report should). It is a little too easy for you to just scream out "It is biased because it has UN on it, and therefore meaning less."

(and the clock is still ticking on your numbers)

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
WTF??? My 50+ weren't enough???????????????

Those were more commentary on the situation rather than numbers comparing the status of Blacks versus Whites.

They did point out possible exploits of the system. I am not against adjusting AA to address certain exploits. Like anything, AA has to exolve. Just because there are a few loop holes does not mean you must toss the entire thing out.

Government is an ongoing process.

mistled · 2003-01-15, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Once again, AA is not meant to help the poor. It is meant to address an inequality between the races. If we are addressing a problem of inequality between races, why would we take race out of the equasion?

AA is not addressing inequality. If it were, it would simply make it illegal to discriminate against anyone and everyone would be judged on merit. AA, as it stands today, gives people gives people an advantage based on their skin color. It treats inequality by providing more inequality.

Besides, all the ways that are pointed out that blacks are considered to still be unequal are economic. If AA is not to help the poor, we shouldn't be using it to give scholarships. What does a rich black man need of a scholarship?? Nothing. But AA must be able to do something for him since you say is not not about economics. What can it do for him??

And what have blacks in America been doing all this time? Sitting on their butts?

I like your line of thinking here. So you are suggesting your family history plays a large part in determining your economic status.

Well lets look at the history of whites and blacks in America. Hmm, by your line of thinking that takes your families history in account, I would say that Blacks have been handicapped just a bit more than whites. AA is there to adress that handicap.

No, they were slaves part of the time.
You do realize that this second quote from you negates what you said to me, right??

What is AA here for?? I thought to was to make people equal. Obviously we mean two different things by this. When I say equal, I mean as all men are equal. Think Martin Luther King.

What AA means by equal is that everyone should have all the same things. Think communism. It's the same thing. The United Socialists of America. That's where AA takes us.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

I mean does the fact that these people are black have anything to do with why they are where they are?? Just to look at this study you have to say that it does. Otherwise, the study would be about geographic regions or types of living environments. I guarantee you that if you take a white child and a black child and make all other things equal, both would score the same in this study of theirs. It has nothing to do with color, it's the environment that that child grows up in.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 08:22 PM

So mistled you are of the opinion there there isn't really an inequality between whites and blacks today.

Again as I outlined earlier, there are two main differences of opinion here where will have hang ups.

1) some people do not feel there is a problem.

2) if there is a problem, some people feel the government does not need to adress this problem/it is not the governments bussiness to address this problem.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
AA is not addressing inequality. If it were, it would simply make it illegal to discriminate against anyone and everyone would be judged on merit. AA, as it stands today, gives people gives people an advantage based on their skin color. It treats inequality by providing more inequality.

Do you really not see how your judgement based on merit would continue to keep whites ahead of blacks?

And how do you really police discrimination? If i choose not to hire someone, I can come up with a myriad of reason why I didn't hire them. How do prove that it was race when I was able to make up valid reasons? Discrimination is OT anyways.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
I mean does the fact that these people are black have anything to do with why they are where they are?? Just to look at this study you have to say that it does. Otherwise, the study would be about geographic regions or types of living environments. I guarantee you that if you take a white child and a black child and make all other things equal, both would score the same in this study of theirs. It has nothing to do with color, it's the environment that that child grows up in.

This is the crux of the issue. If in the same environment blacks and whites should succeed equaly. However their environments are not the same and blacks are not recieving the same success.

So if you feel this is a problem, you try to equal it out with AA.

mistled · 2003-01-15, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
And how do you really police discrimination? If i choose not to hire someone, I can come up with a myriad of reason why I didn't hire them. How do prove that it was race when I was able to make up valid reasons? Discrimination is OT anyways.

Exactly. The government cannot do what it has set out to do. That's my whole point. It can't be done.

mistled · 2003-01-15, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Do you really not see how your judgement based on merit would continue to keep whites ahead of blacks?

No, I see how this keeps the rich ahead of the poor, but I do not see how it specifically hurts blacks, but not whites who are also in poverty.

mistled · 2003-01-15, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
This is the crux of the issue. If in the same environment blacks and whites should succeed equaly. However their environments are not the same and blacks are not recieving the same success.

Lex, at least we mainly agree on the problem it seems.
But since the problem is the environment, why aren't we fixing the environment. AA does nothing to help that. It just gives you freebies at the expense of others that look nice, but don't help the underlying problem.