Uber-Flail - Page 5

keaoi · 2003-11-03, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Veteran

Artillery piece vs. assault vehicle is the question here.

Since it's under Mobile Artillery, the answer is clear.

I think the devs will get the drift and patch it, otherwise PS has a new heavy assault vehicle.

I have yet to have a Flail driver ask me to be his forward spotter. When that day happens, I will gladly go paint some targets. As it is now, he doesn't need anyone but his trigger.

exactly, the only problem with this is that, only dedicated outfits would take the time to ultilize this ability. Whats even worse is that with the new XP systems, deploying this thing on the front lines is warrented, because it gets more kills than from 3km away. IMHO this also means that its more effective at short range. My outfit rarely employs Flail use, but when we do, we are less devestating than Mr.N00B with Br2 and his precious Flail.

When it comes down to it, Flail's spamming towers from 5m away on top of the hill you coulnt land a reaver on is a "perfect example of a common pool game imbalance". For those of you that doubt the possibility of its exsistence, ask yourself how fun Doom would have been if we started the game with a 150 round BFG. Or maybe UT with 150 rounds of redeemer? Just cause everyone can get it, doenst put it on par with where it should be.

I dont feel Im asking anything unreasonable, but heres a quick recap of what I feel would be appropriate:

- Lower armor about 50% (not a random number, I can see it survivng 2+ reaver passes, but not 4)

- Make deployment requirements same as landing aircraft. (prevents base spamming at close range)

- Up the speed and deployment rate. (Mobile artillery should be able to retreat fast, but not faster than say the speed of a AMS )(NOTE: Im not being realistic here, just helping game balance)

- Increase minimum and maximum firing height/arc by 20%. (cant defend itself up close, but can fire over obstacles.)

- Increase projectile speed slightly. Slow refire rate VERY slightly. (this actually makes it MORE deadly againist aircraft, but with less armor, it wont last as long)

- Prevent from deploying within enemy SOI
-or-
Half the damage within 300m

The nerfs put it FAR away from the front lines, and the buffs make it more like artillery while not sacraficing game-balance.

Flammey · 2003-11-03, 04:15 AM

Oh, why the hell stop at nerfing the Flail. Let's fucking nerf EVERY GOD DAMN THING IN THE GAME. Oh, even better, I'll give you a rubber bat, and I'll take a rubber bat, and we'll hit our enemies with that, until they fall down.

You want to make it so that the Flail can not fire below 60 Degrees. Uh, HELLOOOOOO. It right now fires from horizon to maybe 50 degrees. THINK. HELLOOOO.

Half the Damage within 300 Meters. HELLOOOOOO. It's artillery. If anything it would damage DEGRADE, not damage INCREASE.

The Deployment speed, and vehicle speed are fine. THAT's what gives it ONE vulnerability.

Decrease the armor by 50%. Unnecessary. 3 grunts managed to take out one Flail by ourselves. We simply got close with Lashers/Maelstroms. That was it. It couldn't deploy fast enough. I was attacked by ONE Reaver, and I was dead. It hit me with 30 missles, and I was gone. I couldn't deploy fast enough, nor could I hit it, as he was above the 50 degree max angle.

Prevent from deploying within nme soi. Okay, Then you TR can't deloy your MAX's and no one can deploy their Switchblades, AMS's, and Routers. Use your head boy. That's a BAD idea.
The firing speed and rate of fire are fine.

Don't forget. THIS IS ANCIENT TECHNOLOGY, yet set in the future. It is also a game. The Flail has exactly the same armor as the AMS. THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE DONE TO NERF THE FLAIL IS TO SET A MAXIMUM PER EMPIRE, much like maximum Mods, and Maximum mods being run. Set a limit of Flails allowed.
And quick calling it Uber. It isn't the End-All-Be-All weapon. Your side isn't suddenly going to lose just because the other side has one outside your base or tower. And think about this, I chased away a Flail with a Gauss toting Armor Piercing rounds. And it wasn't even attacking my base/tower. I just happened to Drop near him when he tried setting up, and got close. And I've had my flail fucked up by 2 guys firing Decimators almost one after the other, so there was a steady stream of rockets hitting me. Took 10 decimators to kill me, and when I killed one of them, he was replaced by someone bringing replacment Decis. The Flail isn't a super weapon. So, you want to nerf it? Well, like I said, then let's nerf every fucking thing in the game.

Flammey · 2003-11-03, 04:25 AM

Oh, and one more thing.

You people complain to fucking much. Why don't you try playing more, and bitching less. You don't see me complaining about anything in game. I do, as a matter of fact, have things to bitch about. Like, for instance, did you know that those Ancient Tech Turrets can fire downwards at a 60 Degree angle? You cannot get close to one with an NME in it and live. Unless he's a fucking retard. But I'm not going to complain about that, as I can use it too, to MY advantage. Quit fucking complaining, and think about ways to nerf shit. Why not THINK about WAYS to use the FLAIL to YOUR ADVANTAGE???????????

keaoi · 2003-11-03, 04:35 AM

didnt mean to set you off flammey, ur a good guy, but seriously. i pay $13 a month just like you do. you dont like me having an issue with something i subscibe to? fine. skip the thread. its not gonna kill you.

also, with the 30 rockets. bs. seriously, im good with the reaver, and i did 4+ passes on one it was still alive. no way thats they same as an AMS. im not saying nerf it cause its pwning me too much. ive been killed by one maybe 3 times.

its just that i know what the orginal concept for the flail was. artillery. not moveable super-turret that goes one on one with vanguards and wins.

Flammey · 2003-11-03, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by keaoi

didnt mean to set you off flammey, ur a good guy, but seriously. i pay $13 a month just like you do. you dont like me having an issue with something i subscibe to? fine. skip the thread. its not gonna kill you.

also, with the 30 rockets. bs. seriously, im good with the reaver, and i did 4+ passes on one it was still alive. no way thats they same as an AMS. im not saying nerf it cause its pwning me too much. ive been killed by one maybe 3 times.

its just that i know what the orginal concept for the flail was. artillery. not moveable super-turret that goes one on one with vanguards and wins.

Yes, I see what you mean. I wasn't set off by any one person. I was set off by lack of reasonable thought on many people's part. If you want to tweak the Flail so that it acts more like Artillery, then that's fine. But use your heads when giving ideas. A good 95% of the ideas I saw were not functional.

As for those 30 rockets, I can't say if it was that EXACTLY, but it sure seemed like it. It was probably more like 50 rockets. 4+ Passes? Well, there's your problem. He was stationary above me. Not moving. Shooting almost straight down.

And hey, of course you have the right to scrutinize things because you pay for them. My posts were not meant to slam people for wanting to nerf the Flail. I'm just tired of reading about people wanting to nerf things just because they keep getting killed by it. This is just another thing people want to nerf in a string of things people want to nerf. OFN. I just want people to use their heads when they say, "HEY, THIS NEEDS TO BE CHANGED." I say, why change it? Use it to your advantage!

Here's one way to take on a Flail, and with a tank. Do not be seen by it first. Come from behind. Hit it fast and hard. When it starts to turn towards what is shooting it, MOVE MOVE MOVE. You can drive faster than it can turn. KEEP MOVING. Keep firing. Even better yet, take it on with 3 empire tanks. Personal experiance- Flail is little match for a good Magrider pilot and gunner. As long as the Mag driver keeps moving the same way the Flail's Turret moves. IF the Flail's Turret get's in line with your vehicle. MOVE towards the Flail. Always towards. Pass it on a side, and run away. You'll get away before it can turn towards you. That's not always possible, as the Flail might be on a mountain, but hey, chances are, the Flail won't be able to hit you if you keep moving and manuevering. Make sharp turns around trees, rocks, what ever you can. Break the Flail's Line-of-sight.

keaoi · 2003-11-03, 05:06 AM

i understand that flails can be countered, but the killing through walls? deploying right outside a tower? if i used everything i could to my advantage, id be GODJOEY2, and thats not my playstyle. in fact, few people choose to play that way. i have no problems with anything else in the game. not a frequent OMFG NERF TEH "__________" poster. honestly i even feel the jackhammer is the 2nd best HA (I ph34r ur chaingun TR) (NOTE: PLZ DO NOT FLAME ME, THAT IS A PERSONAL OBSERVATION BASED UPON MY PREFERED PLAYSTYLE) and i think the reaver was fine the way it was, and fine the way it is.

not much can bother me, but the flail is an exploit, exploited all too often, and the balances suggested on this thread do not in anyway weaken its orginal role, but instead makes the consequences for "putting it where it dont belong" more severe, and encourage teamwork (PS will never NOT need incentive for teamplay) by lazing targets.

/edit/ the "no deployment in SOI" would also be reserved for Flail's only.

Flammey · 2003-11-03, 07:25 AM

Well, see, what I was bitching about is how people just throw out ideas to so-called fix the Flail. Most of the ideas I've seen would make the Flail worthless than zero. Instead of picking the Flail to pieces by reducing the armor or the damage capability, or even how it's able to setup, why not change things like, as I said, allowing only a certain amount per continent per empire. Or slow down the turret rotation speed. Or increase the minimum elevation AND maximum elevation. Just saying, "Oh why don't they make it so that it can't fire under 60 degree angle?" is just plain not thinking. The thing doesn't go above 50 degrees as it is NOW. (FYI - This isn't fact, just personal observation and mathematical observation. It seemed to be able to angle from 0 degrees to 50 degrees.) And personally, just because you use things to your advantage does not mean you'll become a great player. And Godjoey isn't a great player. Not from my personal fighting experiance against him, nor from an objective stand point. His kill count is deceiving. As I've said before, 77% of his kills are against Standard Exosuit. Which means he kills a lot of people who have just spawned. I'm not saying that the whole 77% was people just spawned. I said alot. PERSONALLY I don't feel special when I spawn camp. I don't feel that I'm a good player to do so. I do it because it's a way to keep the nme from messing your work up. What ever that may be. Some peope, might say, "well then, blow up the tubes." I don't just go around blowing spawn tubes. I only blow them up when I feel that I can't handle the situation. If MAX's are just going to start spawning out of no where, then I can't handle the situation, blow the tubes. But one or two guys is not hard to handle. I'm not proud of it either. But it is necessary. But this is getting off the point of the Flail. I'm saying, quit giving ideas that are worthless, and give ideas that can be used. Like this, Right now, the Flail can target any SL WP I fire on that. THAT should be changed. The only targeting that should be able to be fired upon is the Laze pointer WP. THAT's it. Some moron would come up with the idea, "Well, how about they make it so that the Flail Can't fire unless someone sets a Laze WP?" Stupid. Then the Flail would be worthless than zero. Could not protect itself at all. Dumb idea.

Which brings me to the Common pool issue. I don't see people bitching about the power of the Decimator. It can destroy a MAX in 1 or 2 shots, and often a MAX has no chance, especially if the decimator is in the hands of a skilled operator. The Decimator is the single most powerful hand held weapon out there right now. It kills MAX's, Vehicles, and even some unlucky grunts. That brings up the power of the Flail's shot. Why say, "Oh, decrease the power of the shot by half damage. *Smacks you upside the head* You don't even know how much damage it does in the first place. I've not been able to figure it out, have you? Hurts more than a 150 mm shell, but that's all I can tell. Can take out a tank in 3-4 shots, where as a 150mm shell might take 6-10. But god knows that too for sure. For one, it's Artillery. And who ever said it wasn't meant to be assult needs to redefine his idea of assault. IT IS ASSAULT. It's meant to soften up targets before the seige begins. That's my idea of assault to a tee. So instead of saying cut it's damage by half, come up with a better idea, like cut it's turning speed down by say 10%. It can still defend itself, but a faster vehicle can stay away from the shot, meaning the Flail operator has to be creative, or *Feign surprise* even have people defending him.
And before you go all hob nob on me, I firmly believe the Flail is fine the way it is. I've yet to see one come out, and change the tide of a battle. Usually the battle is already going one way, and the flail just helps it along. But I've not seen the nme losing, and bring out a flail and all of a sudden my side is losing. Hasn't happened yet. Probably won't. Last time the nme was losing, and brought out a Flail, me and my Buddy killed it with our Mag. And I was gunning. I never missed a shot, and it never hit us once, although it tried. So I still say, instead of telling me why it's broke, and needs fixing, why not actually look at the thing from all angles. How do you truly balance the Flail? Do you want to make it so that NO ONE will want to use it? Will you make it so that EVERYONE will want to use it? Or will you make it so that it is useful in certain situations and useless in others? THINK PEOPLE

keaoi · 2003-11-03, 11:34 AM

I just cant understand WHY you think the Flail is fine the way it is. It seems as though your only reading half of what I post. Things like "Half the damage" or "Stop deployment within enemy SOI" is not all I said. These things are reserved for the Flail alone, and BY FAR do not make it worthless. You also forgot that potential balances I listed were "Increase movement speed; Increase projectile speed; Increase (un)deployment rate" could possibly even up the damage for all I care.

But if the damn thing is shooting threw walls is "fine", or deploying on a 80 degree slope so its entire range of fire is into the base is "fine" then we completely differ in our view of "Godjoey" like tactics and of Planetsides balance. Which is fine, I really dont care if I change your view on this. Like I said before, "It's your $13"

Flail's are devestating at range, espically when defended by a full squad. People who want to defend it in its current state fail to see the bigger picture. Its not an assault tank. It doesnt need, nor should it be on the front lines. Just dont be surprised when these balances go into effect. I'm sure the devs are just as happy as I am, seeing that their new toy is not filling its proper role.

(NOTE: not sayin these will, beyond a reason of a doubt, go into effect, but that they will most likely go into effect. SOE has suprised me before.)

/edit/ i take offense that you consider my "tweaks" random throw outs. I gave these considerable thought, AND discussed them with a outfit member. Not calling myself a professional on the flail, but I dont feel they would be taken "word for word" and put into code.

Tegadil · 2003-11-03, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Flammey

stufstuffstuffHELLOOOOOOOOstuff

Hello!

And that thing about giving two sights for the target (shallow and fast/deep and slow) sounds good to me. Reminds me of Tribes with the heavy mortars

Queensidecastle · 2003-11-03, 02:38 PM

The problem with the Flail in a nutshell is that Artillery should have to fire at high degrees of angle to place thier shots. The unit should be a towers or more distance from the base it is attacking and be forced to fire at say 45-85 degrees for its shots like a Mortar.

Unfortunatly, they designed the flail where it shoots like a tank shell and thus you have an artillery piece that acts like a tank. In my opinion it should work like the mortar (for heavies) did in tribes. Where the laser pointer makes a target appear in the sky for the guy manning the Flail where he has to make skill shots at 75-80 degrees if he wants to hit anything

Happy lil Elf · 2003-11-04, 12:09 AM

40 Rocklets to kill an AMS. 54 To kill a Flail. That alone seems rather out of whack.

Aen · 2003-11-04, 01:53 AM

Me=Inside floor 2=Flail shot from outside on floor 1= Me Dead

Oh yeah, I was in a MAX. Isnt that some shit?

keaoi · 2003-11-04, 01:54 AM

for those of you that doubt its uberness

i was killed twice in the bottom of that tower from 1 of the 3 flail's fire. needless to say we lost the tower. (though we later recaputered it when there were fewer Flails)

PS - oh and for those of you that say, "use a reaver u n00b" im sure the three bursters "defending" the location would have had quite a blast with that.

/edit/ lol sorry, look at the map in the pic itself. my bad

Flammey · 2003-11-04, 03:09 AM

Well, this shooting through walls is wrong. But I've been killed by rockets when I'm inside, and the door is closed. I've also been run over by a Harasser when I was inside. So you go figure that one out.

Aen · 2003-11-04, 03:10 AM

A harasser? Thas funney!