Obama Gambles On Gay Marriage - Page 5

Sirisian · 2012-05-19, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by Red Beard

Dude; home bible studies are getting fined for not registering...in america. The collectivism is not promoting freedom.

That's more a side problem with how laws worked in one city for gatherings. Not really a problem with bible studies in particular so the point is moot. I don't understand your last sentence at all.

Also I will point out that marriage isn't a religious thing. It's a government contract. It's wonderful that a ton of religions have it in their verses, but it really has nothing to do with the marriage that the government is concerned about. It's perfectly fine if one religion wants to tell their participants that they can't marry people of the same sex, but it's a bit ridiculous to try to force that arbitrary law between two consenting adults on everyone. That's the bigger issue.

Figment · 2012-05-19, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Also I will point out that marriage isn't a religious thing. It's a government contract. It's wonderful that a ton of religions have it in their verses, but it really has nothing to do with the marriage that the government is concerned about. It's perfectly fine if one religion wants to tell their participants that they can't marry people of the same sex, but it's a bit ridiculous to try to force that arbitrary law between two consenting adults on everyone. That's the bigger issue.

Indeed, government marriage is secular.

Warborn · 2012-05-19, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

That and latinos are typically catholic raised. And the afro-American churches have a bit more entertainment than your average reformed or protestant church. Though it's pretty mental in the USA with the... "Extra activities" regarding church.

The implication isn't that one group is religious and the other isn't. It's that black communities tend to view their pastors as much more important leadership figures. I mean, Martin Luther King and Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are all reverends. So I think the situation is that church-going people who care more about the ideas their pastor imparts on them are more easily convinced that gay marriage is a bad thing than simply religious people who maybe go to church once a month and make up their own mind on issues like gay marriage.

Either way it's pretty sad to see. How easily people forget their own history, I guess.

Traak · 2012-05-20, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

It's perfectly fine if one religion wants to tell their participants that they can't marry people of the same sex, but it's a bit ridiculous to try to force that arbitrary law between two consenting adults on everyone. That's the bigger issue.

So you are in favor of brothers and sisters marrying, fathers and daughters, fathers and sons, Fathers and grandsons getting married, as long as everyone is 18 or over?

Just because two adults agree to do something doesn't mean it's right, sane, or good for society.

Are you in favor of people being able to fight to the death over some issue? (Dueling)

How about an entire group committing suicide because some meteor is flying over? They were all consenting to that.

A pyramid scheme consists of consenting adults. Pyramid schemes are illegal. Street racing is often between consenting adults, and it's illegal.

Stating that something that involves consenting adults is okay because of that? I don't agree.

Some people have a sense of right and wrong. Laws are a result of that, not the other way around.

Traak · 2012-05-20, 10:30 AM

.

Baneblade · 2012-05-20, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

So you are in favor of brothers and sisters marrying,

Why not?

fathers and daughters,

Why not?

fathers and sons,

Why not?

Fathers and grandsons getting married,

Why not?

as long as everyone is 18 or over?

It isn't exactly unprecedented.

Just because two adults agree to do something doesn't mean it's right, sane, or good for society.

How is gay marriage wrong, insane, or bad for society?

Are you in favor of people being able to fight to the death over some issue? (Dueling)

Yes, pretty sure it might still be legal actually.

How about an entire group committing suicide because some meteor is flying over? They were all consenting to that.

Not illegal to commit suicide.

A pyramid scheme consists of consenting adults. Pyramid schemes are illegal.

Pyramid schemes are predatory financial constructs. Consenting to one, doesn't mean you know what it is.

Street racing is often between consenting adults, and it's illegal.

Street racing can harm people that aren't consenting, which is why it is illegal.

Some people have a sense of right and wrong. Laws are a result of that, not the other way around.

Demonstrate how gay marriage is wrong without quoting the Bible.

Figment · 2012-05-20, 10:42 AM

There are actually valid reasons for why close family should not marry and get offspring: it actually has the potential of the effects of inbreeding.

Marriage between people of same sex has no such consequences as there is absolutely no chance of offspring. Comparing the two as being on the same level is therefore completely and utterly retarded (one of the potential consequences too...).

In fact, even if the idea or argument would be that STDs would somehow be transmitted through gay sex, then marriage reduces the chance of STD on one person from spreading to other people: only one partner remaining.

Traak · 2012-05-20, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Street racing can harm people that aren't consenting, which is why it is illegal.

Thou shalt not kill

There. I quoted it.

One of the primary differences between God's view of right and wrong, as delineated in the Bible, and man's ever-fluctuating standards is that in God's system, hurting yourself is wrong. God loves us, doesn't want us to harm ourselves, so things that negatively influence you, whether physical, moral, mental, or whatever, are proscribed whether they involve anyone else other than you and God.

And I know you said not to quote the Bible, but, as you see, I ignored that.

That is why those who love God or don't have differences, because God personally cares for everyone, and the things he has told us to do or not do are not only for the good of others around us, but for our own good individually. If drunkenness, bestiality, hatred, whatever were good for you, the Bible would recommend them. They are not, so it doesn't. No matter what effect your state has on anyone else.

There aren't many of man's laws you can break by yourself alone in a room. But there are many things, especially in the New Covenant, that you can do, alone, by yourself, that are sins.

God told us what the bad stuff was, and to avoid it, and what the good stuff was, and to cling to it. Since he knows everything, he knows what works. I don't bother arguing with him, I just try to do what he says in the Bible.

The non-deist largely does not hold to the idea that there is any moral significance to stuff that people do together or alone, but there is, according to God.

Figment · 2012-05-20, 10:54 AM

So Traak, you think NASCAR should be banned because it's anti-biblical?

Figment · 2012-05-20, 10:56 AM

Oh and genocide is a good thing in the Bible, isn't it? God even did it a few times for humanity...

Traak · 2012-05-20, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

The problem with the religious standpoint is that their religious evidence is cherry picked out of many passages

You mean passages that forbid certain things? Yeah, it has to be "cherry picked" because not every single verse in the entire Bible has to do with every single topic in the entire Bible.

So, for instructions on what is righteous sexual conduct, we go to the verses and passages that deal with sexual conduct.

God not wanting people to engage in sin isn't because he's a bigot. It's because he loves people, each, on an individual basis, not just on some holistic bell-curve average. Sin is sin because it is bad for you. Whether anyone else is involved or not. Righteousness is good for a person, a people, and the world as a whole.

God doesn't hate people, and the Bible doesn't teach us to either. In fact, it even decries the concept of disrespecting demons.

I have noticed in reading the Bible that Jesus treated Satan with more respect than most people treat their wives, husbands, or best friends. Just because we, the Christians, don't agree with sin doesn't mean we hate people who are proponents of those sins.

And, the world is full of choices. You can choose to agree with homosexuality, lying, theft, murder, or whatever sin you agree with. And we can continue to condemn sin in its every iteration, while not hating the people who practice it.

But, us not agreeing with you or anyone else on what is right and wrong doesn't make us bigots. But slinging the term "bigot" around for anyone who believes something you don't and is using his legal rights to oppose it, just like you use your legal rights to oppose things you don't like, is being hyprocritical.

"You say that this thing that I like is a sin, therefore you are hateful, a bigot, etc." is not an accurate statement. I am against suicide, and if I could, I would prevent someone from doing it. Me preaching, teaching, or doing what I can to prevent suicide, and to oppose people who may be trying to influence others to kill themselves isn't bigoted. If you are in favor of suicide, you aren't being bigoted by trying to advance the cause of suicide.

Figment · 2012-05-20, 11:16 AM

Traak, there's no such thing as "sections" in the bible on specific moral conduct. You have to refine it out of hundreds of pages of random babbling and typically they're side stories or other off-topic judgements, where character murder is the center piece of a justification for whatever stupid or horribly vengeful act was being committed.

Traak · 2012-05-20, 11:23 AM

That is incorrect. The Bible has sections devoted to every issue of life. Take Leviticus 18, for example.

Leviticus 18
Lev 18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
Lev 18:10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
Lev 18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
Lev 18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
Lev 18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
Lev 18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
Lev 18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
Lev 18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
Lev 18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled

Lev 18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
Lev 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

It's usually pretty direct.

Such as Jesus on pedophiles:
Luke 17
Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Figment · 2012-05-20, 11:53 AM

Traak, they're not clearly sectioned. Leviticus is a cumulation of all kinds of morality, the bible as a whole is not clearly sectioned at all.

Btw, speaking of Leviticus, how many times did he have to say he was the lord and your god? Perhaps you realise Mozes at the time had a bit of an authority problem on his hand and he had to drive home the point his morality needed proper authority? >.>

Baneblade · 2012-05-20, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

There are actually valid reasons for why close family should not marry and get offspring: it actually has the potential of the effects of inbreeding.

Inbreeding is not always bad genetically, the genetic disorders attributed to it are more hereditary than a complication of genetics. Taken to extreme over several generations though, will lead to a weaker genetic structure.

Originally Posted by Traak

One of the primary differences between God's view of right and wrong, as delineated in the Bible, and man's ever-fluctuating standards is that in God's system, hurting yourself is wrong. God loves us, doesn't want us to harm ourselves, so things that negatively influence you, whether physical, moral, mental, or whatever, are proscribed whether they involve anyone else other than you and God.

Even so, that does not award you the right to govern other people and regulate their sin.

And I know you said not to quote the Bible, but, as you see, I ignored that.

You didn't quote the Bible, you referenced it.

That is why those who love God or don't have differences, because God personally cares for everyone, and the things he has told us to do or not do are not only for the good of others around us, but for our own good individually.

Clarify this.

Do you know why homosexuality is an abomination? Because when the Bible was written, well the time span anyway, population growth was critical to the survival of a people due to disasters and war. Homosexuality is not a new thing and neither is the persecution of it.

There aren't many of man's laws you can break by yourself alone in a room. But there are many things, especially in the New Covenant, that you can do, alone, by yourself, that are sins.

Still has nothing to do with legislating morality.

God told us what the bad stuff was, and to avoid it, and what the good stuff was, and to cling to it. Since he knows everything, he knows what works. I don't bother arguing with him, I just try to do what he says in the Bible.

Free will be damned eh?

The non-deist largely does not hold to the idea that there is any moral significance to stuff that people do together or alone, but there is, according to God.

How would you know?

Originally Posted by Traak

So, for instructions on what is righteous sexual conduct, we go to the verses and passages that deal with sexual conduct.

You never take her from the rear? You're missing out man.

God not wanting people to engage in sin isn't because he's a bigot. It's because he loves people, each, on an individual basis, not just on some holistic bell-curve average.

Love is only love when you love the whole, homosexuality and all.

Sin is sin because it is bad for you. Whether anyone else is involved or not. Righteousness is good for a person, a people, and the world as a whole.

Righteousness, probably the most hostile word in the Christian vocabulary. It was used to persecute, murder, and justify genocide.

The bottom line is that this country was founded to free us from the control of religions. You are free to believe what you want as long as it doesn't harm others.