Leaning in Planetside.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

I came to the conclusion that prone would be all but useless and a death trap not based on how it worked in other games. But directly on scenarios and thought experiments I run through my head. At the pace PS1 played at (which was slow I guess) nobody would use prone. Except maybe inexperienced snipers. The game didn't have many places where a prone person would be awesome. It was designed without prone in mind to begin with, and I know that the reason wasn't for game pace or stupidification. The reason was most likely that the game didn't need it, and the DEVs didn't want to design little hidey holes in bases or cover that capitalized on someone being prone. Crouch was enough.

PS2 has the same scenario going. There's probably not enough places to go prone and be at all effective. And with combat being the way it is, going prone just begs the LA ahead of you to jump up and capitalize on a serious height advantage over your suddenly very exposed body. In reality people go prone more to avoid being obliterated by shrapnel from explosions (and explosions themselves) then improve accuracy and make themselves into a smaller target while at close range. At long range they use it for accuracy, but in PS1 the sniper's biggest threat was cloakers, and you did NOT want to be immobile when one is nearby.

I think you get it. That's the whole idea with prone and other gameplay mechanics. They don't have to be silver bullets for every situation. Going prone inside of a base on a roof might be a good choice, but you leave youself stationary and an easy target. Outside if you see someone running though you might not feel like spraying bullets. Especially if they don't see you at night. You can easily choose to crouch then transition to prone and shoot at the enemy then stand back up. Huge tactical advantage when you don't have an obvious form of cover for longer range shots. This goes hand in hand with a proper implementation. If you've read my other threads or anyone elses that supported prone or was against it no one wanted dolphin diving. We all unanimously voted for a simple crouch to prone animation to keep things sane with proper collision support when prone. I digress the other threads beat this into the ground.

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

It's just you have a habit of trying to compromise or trying to force your own idea.

I've read every gameplay related post on this forum and lean and cover mechanics have come up before. It might look like I'm forcing "my" idea. I'm actually taking everyone's comments about what they don't want in the game. For instance, many people have talked about cover systems in the past and locking animations. This came up in the knife thread even and many people raised their voice to say they wanted Planetside 2 to feel fluid with no locked in animations.

Actually I get tired of linking threads since no one reads them. Here's a leaning thread we already had. People also brought it up in this cover thread by accident. There was also a TTK thread that had a random Rainbow Six discussion in it about cover systems.

Also it's because when I suggest "my" idea it's because I feel like it is a very clean solution that allows lean in every foreseeable use case for it. People can use it to look or to shoot without making it feel cheap if it can only be activated when not moving and leaves the player somewhat exposed by removing mobility. (Because not moving as we saw could get you killed very quick).

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

Why not? The way I voted was I put down for the ability to aim and shoot, as well as the ability to just peek. I wanted a system that would let me do either or and not lock me into a position for an hour and a half. I also put that I'd like a cover mechanic because what I had in mind put all 3 of these things into a neat package in my head. And I'm pretty sure others did the same thing.

It seems like a cover mechanic isn't necessary. Also I'd rather be able to lean without being next to a wall. If I'm standing behind someone who is leaning out a door I might want to crouch a little ways back to only reveal the top part of my character. Forcing my character to be next to a wall to activate such a stationary option doesn't seem necessary. Especially if we assume I'm not moving then I don't need my hands on a and d and can just use q and e to perform the lean. This is under my assumption that lean can only be activated when not moving and uses a very slight delay in the animation.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

I think you get it. That's the whole idea with prone and other gameplay mechanics. They don't have to be silver bullets for every situation. Going prone inside of a base on a roof might be a good choice, but you leave youself stationary and an easy target. Outside if you see someone running though you might not feel like spraying bullets. Especially if they don't see you at night. You can easily choose to crouch then transition to prone and shoot at the enemy then stand back up. Huge tactical advantage when you don't have an obvious form of cover for longer range shots. This goes hand in hand with a proper implementation. If you've read my other threads or anyone elses that supported prone or was against it no one wanted dolphin diving. We all unanimously voted for a simple crouch to prone animation to keep things sane with proper collision support when prone. I digress the other threads beat this into the ground.

The example you give is a fairly rare occurrence. Think battlefield conditions, you wouldn't want to drop prone because an enemy might already be aiming at you. Or at least I wouldn't. First shot fired would attract the runner's attention, and while being prone would give you a serious advantage, especially a night, it would attract more then just the runner's attention. Crouching serves the same purpose and maintains mobility.

Also it's because when I suggest "my" idea it's because I feel like it is a very clean solution that allows lean in every foreseeable use case for it. People can use it to look or to shoot without making it feel cheap if it can only be activated when not moving and leaves the player somewhat exposed by removing mobility. (Because not moving as we saw could get you killed very quick).

You present a mechanic that is complicated, yet does nothing that simply crouch walking around the corner with a sweeping field of fire couldn't accomplish. And it tactically offers less protection since the lean function you describe is pretty universal in terms of how much exposure you give, while crouch walking around gradually opens up your field while giving you a chance to stop and gun down opponents as you see them. That works for long range or open areas. Close Quarters you'll want to move faster because the enemy will see you before you see them and accuracy isn't a concern at those ranges.

It's not about providing a variety of options for every situation. It's about finding the most effective ones given basic circumstances. And a simple lean function adds nothing that can't be done without it, or done better with other tactics.

It seems like a cover mechanic isn't necessary. Also I'd rather be able to lean without being next to a wall. If I'm standing behind someone who is leaning out a door I might want to crouch a little ways back to only reveal the top part of my character. Forcing my character to be next to a wall to activate such a stationary option doesn't seem necessary. Especially if we assume I'm not moving then I don't need my hands on a and d and can just use q and e to perform the lean. This is under my assumption that lean can only be activated when not moving and uses a very slight delay in the animation.

Again these are tactics that could be done without a lean function. Crouched person goes around the corner and a stander swings around behind him. Also these kinds of situations probably won't happen in PS2. When people use cover in PS1, it's in standing or crouched positions in nichs and behind crates, taking advantage of choke points and kill zones rather then actual cover.

The game isn't meant to simulate paramilitary tactics. It's meant to create a large scale battlefield. Small mechanics like lean just aren't needed.

If a cover system were used then it would basically just improve the speed at which you pivot out of and into cover, so you aren't relying on normal infantry movement to pop in and out of cover. It's a tougher system to implement and very prone to bugs, but short of such a system I see no reason for cheaper mechanics.

In PS1 (and I can already tell this will be the case in PS2), you will rely on cover to reduce your firing range and therefore reduce the number of enemies that can shoot at you. As a means of reducing your exposure to enemies directly in front of you, not so much. The weapons are too accurate for it to be useful in that sense.

[The Kush]

I don't like leaning or cover like in gears but that's my opinion. I see no place for this in planetside.

[Landtank]

Originally Posted by The Kush

I don't like leaning or cover like in gears but that's my opinion. I see no place for this in planetside.

I agree, but leaning with the q and e keys has its uses. I don't like the idea of being stuck to a wall either.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

You present a mechanic that is complicated, yet does nothing that simply crouch walking around the corner with a sweeping field of fire couldn't accomplish. And it tactically offers less protection since the lean function you describe is pretty universal in terms of how much exposure you give, while crouch walking around gradually opens up your field while giving you a chance to stop and gun down opponents as you see them. That works for long range or open areas. Close Quarters you'll want to move faster because the enemy will see you before you see them and accuracy isn't a concern at those ranges.

If you crouched and walked out you were force yourself to reveal pretty much your whole character to the enemy. With a lean mechanism you reveal the top part and only what you want and can rather quickly unlean after firing. It's a much cleaner solution. Also if you're in close ranges no you might not want to use it. Like I said stop treating everything like a silver bullet that must be viable everywhere. That's not what tactical choices are for.

Also why would you say it's complicated? It's just q and e being used. You can't really get much more simple than that. Especially assuming in my proposed implementation you can't move when you activate it. It's no more complicated than using q and e to strafe a BFR in PS1. Your argument seem rather unfounded. It's like you assume anything added to the game must be used for every situation:

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

Again these are tactics that could be done without a lean function. Crouched person goes around the corner and a stander swings around behind him. Also these kinds of situations probably won't happen in PS2. When people use cover in PS1, it's in standing or crouched positions in nichs and behind crates, taking advantage of choke points and kill zones rather then actual cover.

You're basically using an argument of "it isn't in PS1 thus it was never used and wouldn't be used in PS2". That's not even a valid argument. Just because something wasn't in PS1 doesn't mean it wouldn't turn into a viable strategy in Planetside 2. Also you're 100% correct. A person could crouch and step out from a doorway or simply stand and strafe out from a rock or something. The point is lean would give them the choice to handle the situation a different way. Without testing an implementation it's hard to say if it would make for a viable mechanic that would be enjoyable for everyone.

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

The game isn't meant to simulate paramilitary tactics. It's meant to create a large scale battlefield. Small mechanics like lean just aren't needed.

I don't know why you're trying to over-inflate the concept of a character leaning. You then say it's a "small" mechanic. I think the small details are what makes the game. If Planetside 2 successfully implemented leaning and prone into such a fast paced game it would really change people's perspectives on what's possible in an MMOFPS. You'd have a game that effectively gives you nearly full control of your character.

The only big things missing as Bags pointed out with his slippery slope argument is sliding. The Crysis 2 slide was one of the coolest things in that game. Didn't happen often and if we could get that kind of stuff into the game for engineer and medics and light assault we'd see some epic cover systems. The ability for players go from a sprint into a sliding crouch behind cover would be amazing.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

If you crouched and walked out you were force yourself to reveal pretty much your whole character to the enemy. With a lean mechanism you reveal the top part and only what you want and can rather quickly unlean after firing. It's a much cleaner solution. Also if you're in close ranges no you might not want to use it. Like I said stop treating everything like a silver bullet that must be viable everywhere. That's not what tactical choices are for.

Also why would you say it's complicated? It's just q and e being used. You can't really get much more simple than that. Especially assuming in my proposed implementation you can't move when you activate it. It's no more complicated than using q and e to strafe a BFR in PS1. Your argument seem rather unfounded. It's like you assume anything added to the game must be used for every situation:

You're basically using an argument of "it isn't in PS1 thus it was never used and wouldn't be used in PS2". That's not even a valid argument. Just because something wasn't in PS1 doesn't mean it wouldn't turn into a viable strategy in Planetside 2. Also you're 100% correct. A person could crouch and step out from a doorway or simply stand and strafe out from a rock or something. The point is lean would give them the choice to handle the situation a different way. Without testing an implementation it's hard to say if it would make for a viable mechanic that would be enjoyable for everyone.

I'm getting tired so I'll keep my reply simple.

It's complicated because it uses rules, rules that don't give it any more of an advantage then going without it.

And no I'm not just saying "it wasn't in PS1". Look at the situations where you might use lean in PS1. Do you see any in which you could have won a fight you had lost if only you had the use of a lean function? I don't. Except sniper duels. But then it wouldn't be a duel. It would be that episode of Desert Punk where he fights Sand Spider for the first time.

The more I think about it the more I agree with everyone else. Even a simple lean function would kill PS2's potentially fast paced game. A cover system would do the same thing. Tactically a cover system would be great, could use it for corners and barricades alike. Game flow wise, no. It would stagnate combat and reduce it to taking turns shooting at each other's cover while LA dominates.

So this is my last post for the day, this subject, and this thread. Gnite all.

[WNxThentar]

Where has anyone read that there will be no leaning in PS2? Since there is no 3rd person view except in vehicles I'd be surprised if there is no leaning since it is a standard feature of FPS games these days.

Can you provide a link to a post, tweet or video where someone at SOE said there will be no leaning?

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by WNxThentar

Where has anyone read that there will be no leaning in PS2? Since there is no 3rd person view except in vehicles I'd be surprised if there is no leaning since it is a standard feature of FPS games these days.

Can you provide a link to a post, tweet or video where someone at SOE said there will be no leaning?

damnit... bed...

Hey if someone posts evidence that it's in, yay. If not, yay. The point of poll and thread was discussing whether it was wanted, or needed.

Bullets are standard in FPS games, leaning really isn't...

[Trafalgar]

Most games that I've played that do have cover systems make your character stand up / step out of cover to shoot for some bizarre reason, unless you're behind a wall, don't use the cover system, and just move sideways enough to get your gun to the right/left of the end of the wall so you can shoot anyone past it, and use third person view to see what's over there. :|

The cover systems I've seen don't work as well as anyone intelligent using real life cover (why would you expose most of your body when you can expose as little as possible and still be just as accurate)? The games that lack cover systems frequently expect you to just not use cover (Halo) unless you need to wait for shields/health regeneration.

Of course, even if you can only see a person's gun and head, and they can only see yours, in practice that's not going to stop one of you from shooting the other in the head within a few seconds... (Large trees make surprisingly good cover when you only have to worry about just one person, by the way)

[Envenom]

I am the biggest advocate of prone, however I do not support leaning. I remember the old Medal Of Honour Allied Assault days... yikes. Pretty much ruined multiplayer for me seeing people flop around and lean as they ran.

[Trafalgar]

That's why I'd tend to prefer a properly-implemented cover system of some kind. Of course, it could be complicated to do at this stage, so I could see why it wouldn't be something that would be considered.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Envenom

I am the biggest advocate of prone, however I do not support leaning. I remember the old Medal Of Honour Allied Assault days... yikes. Pretty much ruined multiplayer for me seeing people flop around and lean as they ran.

C'mon read the thread and the proposed solutions. Mine suggested that player could only use it while not moving either standing or crouched. Simple stuff.

[Envenom]

Sorry, I've never been a fan of lean regardless.

[xnorb]

Where is this "we need lean mechanics" coming from ? ArmA ?

Cover systems - they way the are implemented in many games - are plain
stupid. When i'm behind cover i can't magically switch to 3rd person view
and see what i'm shooting.

Leaning itself ... come on ... step out of that cover, shoot, get back
to cover ... chances of getting hit are about the same.

IMO it's close to impossible to get a cover system right without making
it nearly completely useless. I absolutely do NOT want a system that
enables you to present the enemy only 4 pixels, but you on your side have
all the abilities (looking, shooting) - this simply sucks.

Same goed for prone - i strongly advise not to put it in except it's ensured
that dolphin-diving, ground-spinning, drop-shooting and alike aren't possible.

Cover-mechanics, prone ... those things need to be implemented as a
1 on 1 copy of the real world. Else they get abused badly and destroy the game.

[Landtank]

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

And the debate rages on. Who's winning?

People will always be too stubborn to be wrong, but that's what makes this forum so great in all seriousness. Lot's of strong opinions and ideas.