Why is it class based? - Page 5

IHateMMOs · 2012-07-11, 05:58 AM

Simple, it's far more organised this way.

Bobby Shaftoe · 2012-07-11, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

They are cutting all that out, balancing the game in a way that you need to get to a terminal to switch out into whatever you need to be at the time.

Except, that's what you had to do in PS1 anyway half the time. I never had a loadout with a T-REK in it nor do I currently have an Infiltrator favourite, if I want to do something with them, I need access to an equip terminal.

You have access to all certs in PS2, it IS BR40 from the start, people saying BR40s could do everything at once are being facetious, you couldn't do everything at once in one loadout, you had to have access to an equipment terminal, which is the exact same situation right now!

Kalbuth · 2012-07-11, 06:07 AM

But you could, at once, do AI, AV, repair, heal, revive stuff. That's already more than what a PS2 guy can do without going to a term.
not counting adv hacking because we don't know how it will work in PS2

Bobby Shaftoe · 2012-07-11, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Kalbuth

But you could, at once, do AI, AV, repair, heal, revive stuff. That's already more than what a PS2 guy can do without going to a term.
not counting adv hacking because we don't know how it will work in PS2

So you could have the 'core' competencies in one loadout, why exactly is that a problem in a 100% PVP MMOFPS?

You couldn't drive many vehicles with that sort of cert expenditure, infact, you wouldn't even have the Decimator with that at PS1 release.

You're still able to do all the 'core' combat capabilities that the 'supersoldier' used to do with the new HA class, whilst sacrificing OUT OF COMBAT abilities, which are now transfered to the Medic class with AoE AND ranged healing.

They've transferred all the fuss and hassle of 10 people having to heal/rep themselves onto 1 or 2 people able to do it for EVERYONE... at the same time, they don't even have to be stationary. Not only that, you can now resupply yourselves too!

Bobby Shaftoe · 2012-07-11, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

Classes exist so we don't have a universal soldier of Rexo/HA/AV/AdvMed/Glue. Stop mudding the waters as if classes exist to stop an Infil with a T-Rek.

That's the whole point!

It's always listed as RExo/HA/AV... then the support certs, they couldn't heal or rep in combat, when the fight is over, THEN they can heal/rep. Please, show me an MMO that has no way of healing/sustaining yourself either in or out of combat.

Now they still use the equivalent weapons and armour, whilst offloading all the support to one or two people in the squad who can now use those abilities whilst in combat and heal multiple people!

I don't particularly want the Infantry gameplay to devolve into TF2/GA heal trains.

Bobby Shaftoe · 2012-07-11, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

You win. Your prize is lifetime AT membership. Congrats buddy.

Just what I always wanted, I knew if I worked hard enough I could get accepted by the best.

Kalbuth · 2012-07-11, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe

So you could have the 'core' competencies in one loadout, why exactly is that a problem in a 100% PVP MMOFPS?

You couldn't drive many vehicles with that sort of cert expenditure, infact, you wouldn't even have the Decimator with that at PS1 release.

You're still able to do all the 'core' combat capabilities that the 'supersoldier' used to do with the new HA class, whilst sacrificing OUT OF COMBAT abilities, which are now transfered to the Medic class with AoE AND ranged healing.

They've transferred all the fuss and hassle of 10 people having to heal/rep themselves onto 1 or 2 people able to do it for EVERYONE... at the same time, they don't even have to be stationary. Not only that, you can now resupply yourselves too!

I'm not saying I think the system is perfect as is, btw. There are tons of refinements to be done on it to work properly.
But this is not the fault of a class system per se, really.

I already explained why I think devs did this, this is a marketing-driven decision, in my mind. So you're not going to change that.

What needs to be perfected, then, within a class-based model?
1) No ammo to HA. See a proposal here (shameless plug)
2) limiting speed when healed (can't be healed while running, for example)
3) leveraging weapon differences between classes so that HA is not the only valid AI option. Avoid PS1 50%+ difference in TTK between weapons.

Constantly complaining about the class system isn't going to change it or have it removed, now. Time to move on.

XLynxX · 2012-07-11, 12:01 PM

I think many people also ignore the issue with a non-class based system in such an in-depth game.

If you opened the game up to allow any player to obtain any piece of equipment and weapon, then you would very quickly have something like a team full of medics who can AOE heal each other, while weilding a heavy assault weapon with a jetpack. That isn't even taking into account "side-grades".

The class system promotes teamwork by forcing people to choose a path to spec into to be useful for a team. Yes bobby is right in that you can still be any soldier you want, if you wish to be a HA user, then quickly become a medic, then grab CE you can still. But the class system doesn't allow you to mix it making awful balancing issues, you have to change load-out each time, and that is a huge disadvantage in battle to keep going to an equipment terminal. Which will in-turn force people into just focusing on one or two classes.

Joe Soldier · 2012-07-11, 12:50 PM

To tell the truth, I really like classes. It lets you concentrate on the role that YOU like to play. For example, in Planetside 1, my first certifications were Medical and advanced medical. In Planetside 2 I could concentrate on being a Combat medic, which has a main purpose (healing teammates)

FuzzyandBlue · 2012-07-11, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Apparently todays gamers don`t seem to be reet clever so they need to make it simple for them to understand/enjoy. They also don`t have much patience either so sancs have gone too, 2 mins to get in a fight is just wayyyy too long !

This and arguments like this are really dumb. Do people realize that the majority of PC gamers are adult males older than 18? 2 mins is "wayyyy too long to get into a fight" not because I have the attention span of a gnat, but because I have a job, school and a wife. I don't want to spend my leisure time standing around in a non combat area. I want to spend actually playing the game. So no I don't have the patience to spend time in a pointless area.

As far as not being, and I quote "reet clever", I'm pretty sure I could look up the min max build that some spread sheeter comes up with in about 8 seconds. Don't go and pretend that in PS1 you invented the rexo medic engi AI AT AA build. You looked it up just like almost everyone else.

A free form system could be cool, but it leads to everyone and their dog playing the exact same way. Just go and look at the PS1 streams on twitch, even cross empire there is zero variation. Look at the modern CoDs sure they have this cool free form system, but its almost never balanced. Does anyone remember Multi player in the first Call of duty. It was classed based and it was some of the best Death match gameplay I have ever experienced.

ArmedZealot · 2012-07-11, 02:34 PM

I like PS2's system for multiple reasons.

More variety - To be in Azure Twilight you have to have some sort of MAX certified. However, I prefer focusing my talents as an infiltrator. I would have to give up something from my infil certs, because of my BR, like electronics expert or something to use a MAX.

With the new system I can just pop a max and go with it, even though it will be a vanilla max.

More depth - No longer is an infiltrator just a cloaker with a pistol and hacking, but have very specific weapons and flavors of weapons to suite particular sub roles within that class. Infils have their own flavor of boomers, multiple different cloaks and whatnot. Heavy Assault doesn't just have assault weapons but also has AV weapons as well and can specialize in both of those roles. The new cert systems makes the class feel more like it is my class rather than just a cookie cutter build.

More distinctive - With the new class system it is easier to tell what a soldier can or cannot do. If I see an infil with a sniper, I know he has a limited cloaking ability. If I see a medic I know he won't pull a jackhammer on me and blow me away. If I have an engineer in my squad I know I have to protect him because he doesn't have a personal shield. These "limitations" provide a more unique and forward way for commanders and players to understand each others roles without having to have them explained with words.

Can some of these things be done without a class system? Probably. But why try to hack these into PS1's system when there is already an established way of doing these things fluidly?

Ratstomper · 2012-07-11, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by FuzzyandBlue

This and arguments like this are really dumb. Do people realize that the majority of PC gamers are adult males older than 18? 2 mins is "wayyyy too long to get into a fight" not because I have the attention span of a gnat, but because I have a job, school and a wife. I don't want to spend my leisure time standing around in a non combat area. I want to spend actually playing the game. So no I don't have the patience to spend time in a pointless area.

Alot of people who make this claim also don't realize the game isn't made by kids. It's made by people who have been playing and working on games for years and years. I think it's safe to have at least a little faith in the devs for making proper choices for the game they made and understand...ya know, if the logic and reason isn't enough for them.

EisenKreutzer · 2012-07-13, 07:29 AM

I like classes.

Baneblade · 2012-07-13, 08:10 AM

So there are people that actually, genuinely, think PS1's Universal Soldiers were more promoting of teamwork than dividing up roles?

People will believe anything, won't they.

Klockan · 2012-07-13, 08:48 AM

It is class based so that we see more types of loadouts. It is impossible to design a system where you see a large amount of loadouts without making it effectively into a class system. In PS1 you can say that your class was defined by your suit which would give us ~4 classes: Cloaker, driver, heavy(this really is the support class with the big inventory) and MAX. Within each one of those groups you had in general rather small differences, much smaller than the differences you can have within classes in PS2. Thus in PS2 we went from having 4 classes to having 6, which is an upgrade imo.