Trying to picture actual tank tactics

[Kashis]

I Hate the new tanks. They need separate tank gunner and separate tank driver. You want a coax on it? Get another gunner for it... He's called the TC or Tank Commander.

We have an exponential number of people on these servers. Why not bunch them up? It's more realistic anyways. I'm done.

[SgtExo]

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

I considered stating the obvious in a previous post, but decided it wasn't necessary. Alas, it is.

Infantry on elevated positions are essentially immune to tank fire. Splash damage can't hit them, so your only hope is to get a lucky shot on a dumb infantry that pokes his head out for too long. It's whack a mole.

I've driven every tank in PS1 extensively. Even with a survivability of taking 36 shots from AV, a vanguard would evaporate if you strayed too close to enemy troops.

Do we not see the problem, then, if tanks die in 6-7 shots? And even fewer if hit from the rear?

Tanks have become less survivable, but infantry haven't (instagib in both scenarios). Yet everyone thinks tanks will be able to use similar tactics to PS1.

I'm not trying to say "Tanks will blow up no matter what you do OMG!" I'm saying, what CAN we do to not blow up instantly? Other than creeping out from cover, there must be something, but the tactics I've heard mentioned so far don't sound remotely realistic and seem to completely ignore how paper thin tanks are now.

But if you attack an entrenched and elevated infantry position that is exactly what should happen because those are awful tactical maneuver for tanks. An enemy that is entrenched cannot move unless it comes out of its position. You have your strengths against the enemies weaknesses, which would be its inability to maneuver without exposing itself. If an enemy is solidly entrenched, go around it and attack an exposed base. If the enemy does not react, you can roam at will inside enemy territory. If they decide to attack you, you just have forced them to meet them on your terms instead of theirs, which means you have the advantage.

[WorldOfForms]

Originally Posted by SgtExo

But if you attack an entrenched and elevated infantry position that is exactly what should happen because those are awful tactical maneuver for tanks. An enemy that is entrenched cannot move unless it comes out of its position. You have your strengths against the enemies weaknesses, which would be its inability to maneuver without exposing itself. If an enemy is solidly entrenched, go around it and attack an exposed base. If the enemy does not react, you can roam at will inside enemy territory. If they decide to attack you, you just have forced them to meet them on your terms instead of theirs, which means you have the advantage.

Attacking a position with infantry in elevated, protected positions is unavoidable in this game. Territory is controlled by bases, outposts and towers. That's where ALL the important conflicts will take place.

I'm not complaining - I like that infantry will have a better chance against tanks this time around. Tanks are just insanely paper thin currently, and I'm trying to figure out how they will survive if nothing changes (even though I'm almost certain their armor will be buffed dramatically).

[Landtank]

Man thank god for beta, or you know, these problems wouldn't get fixed.

[SgtExo]

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

Attacking a position with infantry in elevated, protected positions is unavoidable in this game. Territory is controlled by bases, outposts and towers. That's where ALL the important conflicts will take place.

I would agree with you if there was just one, but there are many. So you can choose where to attack, and attacking uphill an entrenched position is just idiotic and will result in many a deaths.

[AvacadoEight]

I bet SOME Of the Crack Pot tactics would work.

If the NC are charging and the TR are spread kind of thin, but the NC keep a tight, cohesive battle group, they could probably just pick them off.

Plus, who the hell WOULDN'T want to see a massive tank column charging a base?

[Figment]

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

The part I'm not seeing is how some units following behind you is going to protect you from getting shot in the rear. Units aren't some giant wall that blocks shots to your rear. A Lancer can easily pinpoint a tank's rear unless the ENTIRE rear is behind cover.

And how are tanks supposed to sprint from cover to cover in the larger open spaces that are supposed to be "designed for tank battles"?

There's no significant cover in the flats aside from the small ridges that Hamma went through with the ATV indeed. It is however more suited to Prowler combat than the Vanguard or Magrider. Desolation never had much cover, but it was excellent for Lightning and ATV combat, just because you could drive along the edge of hills. Infantry have no cover there either.

I still don't see an answer to this problem: you advance in your tank with your front facing the enemy. You start taking AV fire. You have maybe 2-3 seconds before you explode. What do you do? Unless cover is RIGHT next to you, you have to retreat and evade, exposing your rear. And you're not evading anything with lock-on AV trained on you.

How do you plan to survive if you're not next to cover ALL THE TIME? How do you deal with infantry on base walls? In PS1 the only thing a tank could do when AV infantry fired upon them from an elevated position was to retreat. How are you going to retreat when that exposes your rear?

Everyone keeps saying groups and teamwork will somehow solve this problem, but when it boils down to it, each tank driver will have to deal with the scenarios I'm describing regardless of how many people are coordinating with them. So what if 20 friendly tanks are near you? What happens when a handful of AV infantry start shooting you from a walltop?

Like in PS1, if a handful of infantry fires at you from a walltop, you might die. I agree that the tanks aren't as powerful as they should be given the context, particularly the MBTs seem extremely weak both with and without gunner (moreso with given the endurance per player is halfed, tbh).

If you are with a large group of units, they will need more time though and can't concentrate fire as easily, meaning you have to storm past them to reach their dead angles and have them expose themselves in a different manner, hopefully to the infantry that's sniping or advancing behind you (they won't immediately be able to hit you). Especially if, like with Blitzkrieg, instead of spreading out over a wide area, you concentrate your units on weak points of the enemy. You don't go blindly storming in. You can also bring a couple Sunderers as frontal armour and with infantry to take the high ground as you storm past. If you make sure the high ground AV is preoccupied, they can't fire even if they would have had the opportunity. Sometimes the goal of heavy armour might simply be distraction in that respect: AV high ground turns around, Sundy pulls up behind them with agiles... ehr jet packers and they take the position. After that the enemy should become less organized as they spawn one by one and don't quite know where you are. Of course, you shouldn't stick around in the same place too long.

And the nice thing about a large group of units is that someone will hit a hard to hit target. A group of Thunderers is deadly to a couple Reavers, despite mostly every shot missing. Sheer volume of fire and luck means someone will hit.

Lastly, tanks are meant to advance the frontline, not so much to hold the frontline. Retreating doesn't always have to be part of the plan.

[Ivam Akorahil]

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

This is not a debate about driver/gunner, etc. This is about trying to imagine how we will drive tanks, considering what we know about them.

The part that has me most confused is how we are going to retreat from combat, as the rear of the tank is the vulnerable part. If I engage a large number of enemies on a relatively stable frontline of combat, what happens when I need to retreat? Won't turning to escape get me killed by exposing my backside? This is assuming I'm not in a magrider.

It seems like the best tactic in a large fight will be to attempt hull-down placement or just peeking out from behind obstacles and then backing up almost as soon as you take fire. The old methods of weaving around and driving off over hills probably won't work anymore.


We'll have to play to see if this is a good or bad thing. Am I missing anything? How do you think tanks will have to position and maneuver considering the low TTK and the vulnerable rear?

ive been a tank driver and gunner in the army for 4 years and i found that in games like bf3 and that way also ps2, it actualy works to apply the real life battletank tactics.

so yes you approach carefuly, you stay off hilltops, you "flow" like the water through valleys and ditches and you attack through "narrow" lanes of fire that shield you well, provide cover and possibly let you flank the enemy while the rest of your outfit tries to fix the enemy in position or even lure them out.

hull down is allways a must, retreat or shifting allways in V movements, never show your rear to the enemy, never move completly sideways , make sure flanks are covered, preferably by infantry, and allways have anti air guns on your tank

if you have 4 properly educated tank drivers , utilizing these guidelines you can tip balances of battle.

important is allways : tanks dont go in close quarter spaces without proper infantry support. The battletank is a long range weapon, practise long range fire, be good at it, an enemy tanks should be destroyed before its 200m close to you (thats allready adapted to ingame , in real life youd try to aim for 2 kilometers)

make sure to utilize canopies form trees as air cover, if you dont get spotted you dont get shot at.

P.S. the most important thing ever : FIRE AND MOVEMENT!

[ParisTeta]

@Ivam How would you imagine tank tactics with a magrider (no turret,low fixed forward gun), but strafe cability (but slower then forward speed)?

[fvdham]

Well ,if all tanks are light tanks
the primary role of tanks will be to boost the morale of the infantry
by driving among them, looking impressive and making engine noises.