I LOVE vehicle spam, it's NOT the problem of this game

[LoliLoveFart]

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

I still stand by the notion that outdoors should be vehicle fights and infantry shouldnt be crying about being farmed. Vehicles should decimate infantry, plain and simple.

What you need to do is separate that form indoor fights, so that Infantry can have their playstyle too, so make better bases that are huge structures people have to fight inside of with walk ways and tunnels, not the way they are now with a Spawn point out in the open.

Do not do several things at once or we'll be here all year......

Do not buff AV and improve Bases/Outposts at the same time......

The tools we have in the game currently are enough to deal with vehicles. be it MBTs or ESFs if used by skilled players, after all, this game SHOULD require skill to play for crying out loud, you shouldn't expect 1 infantry to go 1on1 with a MBT, even if the MBT is single manned, it should still win.

Good players do take out MBTs one on one now !!! so nothign needs to change on that front....

TL;DR

1. Give infantry a place to do their thing and they'll be happy.
2. Outdoor should be for outdoor, and thats MBTs/ESFs/Lightnings/Liberators.

Don't balance them vs each other, that balance is currently fine. Balance them by giving them their own playgrounds.

But if they do that and actually fix the balance. What will we have to bitch about when we get killed as infantry? Bitch about other factions?

[Thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by LoliLoveFart

But if they do that and actually fix the balance. What will we have to bitch about when we get killed as infantry? Bitch about other factions?

Thats what Planetside bitching should be eventually about....

[Beerbeer]

I'm sorry, I'm not that good, but as an unskilled player, vehicles make me look damn good.

[yadda]

Originally Posted by Figment

You don't know what the word dedicated means. They're leisure machines right now and it doesn't take a single cert point into them to make them brilliant farming weapons. Putting a little bit into them does not make you dedicated, it just makes the farming easier. Putting a lot into them is absolutely a waste of certs.

I disagree completely

[Figment]

Originally Posted by yadda

I disagree completely

If you don't want a fight, why play this game?

Eh. Your call.

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

I still stand by the notion that outdoors should be vehicle fights and infantry shouldnt be crying about being farmed. Vehicles should decimate infantry, plain and simple.

That's all well and good, but if you think of other players as lower life forms and peons that should just roll over and die, then realise they won't sit and take it.

They'll simply leave the game.

FFS man. It's happened before with BFRs! It's almost happened before with Reaverspam in early PS1! BFR users proclaimed vehicles should just explode before their mobile suit power, "it was only natural!". What happened? Vehicle players left en mass!

What a horrible attitude to have. They can be stronger, but decimation is the wrong word, the wrong principle. You can't treat players as fodder and garbage, they will give you the same treatment!

What you need to do is separate that form indoor fights, so that Infantry can have their playstyle too, so make better bases that are huge structures people have to fight inside of with walk ways and tunnels, not the way they are now with a Spawn point out in the open.

As you well know, I agree that infantry only combat should take place indoors, however, that doesn't mean you should expect to just overrun them everywhere else by default.

That sort of entitlement attitude - from any side of any balancing argument - is always going to lead to massive frustration.

Do not do several things at once or we'll be here all year......

Do not buff AV and improve Bases/Outposts at the same time......

Agreed on that much, besides, AV doesn't need a buff, vehicles mostly need a manpower nerf and then a balance check.

The tools we have in the game currently are enough to deal with vehicles. be it MBTs or ESFs if used by skilled players, after all, this game SHOULD require skill to play for crying out loud, you shouldn't expect 1 infantry to go 1on1 with a MBT, even if the MBT is single manned, it should still win.

Good players do take out MBTs one on one now !!! so nothign needs to change on that front....

To some extend I agree, but to a different extend I disagree. MBTs are not lone wolf units. I also don't think it would hurt light armoured solo vehicles to be able to two, three or even four shot infantry: They would still have all sorts of advantages from mobility (speed/agility) to directional armour and endurance. One shotting should be reserved to multi-crew units IMO and even then not at a rof that's as ridiculous as the Zephyr.

TL;DR

1. Give infantry a place to do their thing and they'll be happy.
2. Outdoor should be for outdoor, and thats MBTs/ESFs/Lightnings/Liberators.

Don't balance them vs each other, that balance is currently fine. Balance them by giving them their own playgrounds.

You might recall it's a combined arms game. Infantry is supposed to be a bit weaker than vehicles, certainly. And it's fine that vehicles have an edge over infantry outdoors in direct combat, again, certainly.

However. Vehicles must also be balanced against one another. The current MBT and Lightning are not. They are both solo units and it doesn't really pay to fully crew it. I can two shot a single crew unit and I can two shot a duo crew unit. Both can one shot. That's not good manpower balance.

There's also no way to create a more powerful dedicated multicrew unit, unless it one shots from behind and has an even larger splash radius against infantry or higher rate of fire, because damage wise, there's no point in going even more powerful.

That's not good either.

Everything must in some way be balanced against one another, whether you like it or not. By that I don't mean balanced as in "it is balanced right now". I mean that when things fight each other, there's a balance and a tipping point.

That's fact.

In balancing, one tries to determine where the tipping point lies.


As Smedley said "every player will be able to play the game as they want to", I intend to keep him to his word: if players want to play AA, they should be able to play AA and get some kills and fulfill their role of protecting non-AA units from air units and be rewarded for that.

If they want to play infantry, they should be able to play infantry in any circumstance.

If they want to play tanks, they should be able to play tanks in any outdoor environment. Whether solo or as dedicated driver. It doesn't however, mean that every tank should be solo. Because that would also mean that every tank would have to be multi-crew. Logic dictates that simply isn't possible. Thus they must separate. Logic dictates the stronger unit is the multi-crew unit and logic dictates you can't simply give one person pretty much the same power as several others within the same unit class. Two vs two in the same class should be fair after all. In a direct fight with a Lightning, the MBT is stronger for exactly that reason. However, it is used alone. That is not fair to the Lightning user.


But playing as one wishes doesn't however, mean people have to be able to have access to everything at the same time, have access to every variant of a archetype, have access to ultimate power. It must always remain a challenge and players should always have handicaps of their own choosing. That's what makes it interesting, overcoming your weaknesses and being creative with what you DO have and make it your own!

Besides, that encourages fastly more teamwork. And no, I don't like it that only one infantry class can use AV. It's fine that you'd only be able to carry one weapon, but why would a medic not carry just an AV launcher and a pistol? What's unbalanced about that? It's a trade-off too: AV power in exchange for AI power.


If infantry must make trade-offs and work together, then other units must do so as well. Multi-crew vehicles are the natural way to do that without upsetting anyone but the selfish, and the selfish have little place in a MMO.



It's not rocket science...

[Seafort]

I've been playing PS2 since middle of beta and there were hardly any aircraft or tanks around then as the Galaxy had an ASM so infantry were the main fighting force.

After the G-AMS was removed tanks and some aircraft started to become more numerous. Aircraft were still quite rare as they got shot down instantly by AA.

Now it is the opposite as aircraft got ridiculously buffed and haven't been rebalanced since beta so they rule the skies and the ground.

Tanks are very numerous as well but seem less of a threat than Liberators and ESFs but the problem is that alot of primarily infantry players feel very vunerable now so they've also grabbed a tank as well. It's easy transport and throw away vehicle (due to the crappy resource system) with some protection and fire power behind to get where you want to go in safety.

For me bases need a major overhaul. The static base turrets need a massive buff to durability and damage. They shouldn't be 2 shotted by tanks. It just makes them pointless.

The AoE blast radius needs to be reduced. When I'm crouched behind a base wall or any significant cover I shouldn't be getting damaged by the HE blast radius or you might as well remove the wall. In some towers the HE shells of tanks or aircraft can penetrate into the middle of the room and kill you. That should not happen.

Acquisition timers on all vehicles should start timing down when the vehicles has been destroyed not when you spawn the vehicle. The system now just results in alot more vehicle spam as the timer is almost always up when you've been out in the vehicle as they are quite survivable so you just get a new vehicle out straight away.

IMO I don't think vehicles should be allowed in bases at all. Put their garages outside the base walls and swap them with the spawn rooms behind shields.

You could put vehicle garages in the satellites surrounding the bases. This would reduce the TK when vehicles are spawned in the middle of a base on the vehicle pads.

Put doors and windows in building FFS. I feel like I'm living in stone age when I enter a building in PS2 and see there is no doors or windows to be found anywhere. Put hacking back in for Infils like in PS1 so they have to hack/pick lock to open them.

As for Liberators and ESFs. They need a serious looking at and rebalancing. I counted 5+ Libs last night over an Amp station just bombing the shit out of everything that moved. I got an AA Max out and tried to fend them off with one or two other Maxes but i died to their destructive powers shortly after I had "deterred" them. They just repaired, rearmed and killed me on the next pass.

In short infantry atm are just an xp/cert farm for vehicles. This is NOT a combined arms MMOFPS. I just hope SOE get their asses into gear after their poorly planned holidays and turn this game around or it's gonna go the way of PS1 just in a lot shorter time span.

[TehCandyMan]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

There, I said it. I know I will get fried for it in this forum, that recently seems to be "hijacked by drama queens" that only see doom for this game, so let the flaming begin.

The promise of this game is that size matters. It's the sheer scale that makes me having a blast every day I play it. Seeing my screen filled up with endless armor columns and huge swarms of air puts a big smile on my face every time. It makes me feel being part of a big war.
I also love the power this game is giving me. I can be anything at any time with almost no restriction. If a situation demands for it, I can instantly switch to the appropriate class or vehicle to handle the situation. It's this freedom that gives me a lot of joy in this game.

Lately, I'm reading a lot of suggestions that want to limit my power and freedom or want to turn this game into a small scale tactical shooter. Screw that, it's not what I signed up for in this game.

You can still have a very strategic game without limiting peoples ability to do whatever they want. Limiting vehicle spam (increasing timers and costs, etc.) is a solution to the wrong problem. Instead, the game should focus on giving me more power to fight vehicle spam: better launchers, deployable AV and AA turrets, artillery call-ins, etc.

I will probably not make myself popular by promoting vehicle spam but I truly see it as the essence of this game, so it's time to stand up and voice a different opinion.

They need to do soemthing about balancing Vehicles weather it be by doing something with the Vehicle Timer or as you said giving us beter AA and AV.

Truth be told as I said over on the forums I rather go for the Buffing of AA and AV. Let them spam their Vehicles, with effective AA and AV that would just be more of an oppurtunity for us grunts with good AA and AV.

I think they should give maxes the lockdown ability (as in PS1) as a cert (but first nerf NC max instagib)... And bring back Strikers, Lancers, and the Pheonix but make sure they are not Empire specific.

These AA and AV weapons they have now are pretty much useless. With the freaking 20 second lockon targeting and the fact that SOE allows Vehicles to scope their weapons. By the time you finally lock in on a target, 20 tanks and planes have already fired at you...

[Suitepee]

Originally Posted by Seafort

In short infantry atm are just an xp/cert farm for vehicles. This is NOT a combined arms MMOFPS. I just hope SOE get their asses into gear after their poorly planned holidays and turn this game around.

Pretty much this. Granted I think HA's can be effective against tanks to some degree, but when I see every single tank use HE shells thus far and where the mentality of "air is the only counter to air" remains, things need to change somewhat.

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Suitepee

Pretty much this. Granted I think HA's can be effective against tanks to some degree, but when I see every single tank use HE shells thus far and where the mentality of "air is the only counter to air" remains, things need to change somewhat.

I personally think that ground vehicles are easily countered, the problem is how easy it is to get them. They need to have increased costs, there needs to be a real penalty to losing one. I can spawn a Magrider every 5 minutes or whatever and that's just ridiculous.

I hardly ever roll my FPC/Saron Magrider out because it's completely useless against Infantry, therefore I get destroyed very quickly. But I also don't need to use it because the HE/Saron setup does more than enough damage to vehicles. I think that is just a balance issue though, which always take time to work out.

The vehicle spam at the moment just needs adjusted IMO, specifically how easy it is to acquire them. I should not be able to spawn vehicles all day if I lose one every 5 minutes. I can jump from ESF -> Lib -> Mag all day long because of the cost limitations.

So, IMO, best way to get more infantry on the ground, and vehicles to be more of an obstacle and less of a zerg, is to dramatically increase the costs to summon vehicles.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Assist

I personally think that ground vehicles are easily countered, the problem is how easy it is to get them. They need to have increased costs, there needs to be a real penalty to losing one. I can spawn a Magrider every 5 minutes or whatever and that's just ridiculous.

I hardly ever roll my FPC/Saron Magrider out because it's completely useless against Infantry, therefore I get destroyed very quickly. But I also don't need to use it because the HE/Saron setup does more than enough damage to vehicles. I think that is just a balance issue though, which always take time to work out.

The vehicle spam at the moment just needs adjusted IMO, specifically how easy it is to acquire them. I should not be able to spawn vehicles all day if I lose one every 5 minutes. I can jump from ESF -> Lib -> Mag all day long because of the cost limitations.

So, IMO, best way to get more infantry on the ground, and vehicles to be more of an obstacle and less of a zerg, is to dramatically increase the costs to summon vehicles.

I think that without a cert investment you are allowed to pull a tank once every fifteen minutes. I think the scale of the game is still causing people to freak out. Imagine a tank column with thirty tanks coming at you. Seems impressive? Thats probably just thirty guys. You can potentially have thousands of guys playing on the same map at the same time. What we need are just stronger redoubts to defend against the vehicle zergs.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

What we need are just stronger redoubts to defend against the vehicle zergs.

Please don't remind us of Cave AT Redoubts.


PS2 modeled all their basic outpost spawns after them already and somehow found a way to make them worse! >_____<

[Seafort]

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

The 10 kdr disagrees. I wonder why.

Liberator gunner! Get him! :P

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Seafort

Liberator gunner! Get him! :P

*points at Magriders in Yadda signature*

[Thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by Figment

That's all well and good, but if you think of other players as lower life forms and peons that should just roll over and die, then realise they won't sit and take it.

They'll simply leave the game.

I never said infantry were lower lifeforms, hell, I enjoy the whole fighting on foot process, as my K/D shows in my signature I'm hardly sitting in a Lib or tank all day long, but I really don't see why infantry should run across open expanses of land with their rocket launchers and then expect to have an equal chance vs a MBT. It's just not right to even begin to balance that anymore than what it already is, which imho is done right currently.

If every outpost was enclosed infantry fighting and every base was enclosed also, then we wouldn't have people complaining. As for using the word "decimate", ok granted, maybe I should have used "destroy".

FFS man. It's happened before with BFRs! It's almost happened before with Reaverspam in early PS1! BFR users proclaimed vehicles should just explode before their mobile suit power, "it was only natural!". What happened? Vehicle players left en mass!

What a horrible attitude to have. They can be stronger, but decimation is the wrong word, the wrong principle. You can't treat players as fodder and garbage, they will give you the same treatment!

Again, never mentioned infantry as garbage, and i spend a lot of time as a grunt, but lets carry on with the actual debate on improving the game rather then semantics.

As you well know, I agree that infantry only combat should take place indoors, however, that doesn't mean you should expect to just overrun them everywhere else by default.

That sort of entitlement attitude - from any side of any balancing argument - is always going to lead to massive frustration.

I wouldn't say it's entitlement but more logistics from a troop movement standpoint. Outdoors should be areas where people are getting places, moving from point X to point Y, they move in Sundys, MBTs, Lightnings, Galaxies (for some outfits), so if an infantryman is caught out in the open, he will be encountering all sorts of hardware, and this is where I think that these infantry, running along, complaining about being killed by MBTs are just playing the game wrong.

Agreed on that much, besides, AV doesn't need a buff, vehicles mostly need a manpower nerf and then a balance check.

Agree regarding AV not needing a buff but I don't think SOE will change the Driver=Gunner of MBTs if that's what you're hinting at.

However. Vehicles must also be balanced against one another. The current MBT and Lightning are not. They are both solo units and it doesn't really pay to fully crew it. I can two shot a single crew unit and I can two shot a duo crew unit. Both can one shot. That's not good manpower balance.

Yes sure, but I am indifferent and have no strong feelings one way or the other when it comes to Tank vs Light Tank or Tank vs Tank etc... It's all fun and games, and lets face it, most of the times vehicles are not running at 100% HP the whole time and tend to get destroyed by pesky Light Assaults and their C4s.....or engineers suicide running the gauntlet through an enemy tank Colin just to drop anti tank mines.

Also don't get me started on Engineers and Anti tank mines vs Sunderers.

Everything must in some way be balanced against one another, whether you like it or not. By that I don't mean balanced as in "it is balanced right now". I mean that when things fight each other, there's a balance and a tipping point.

Who doesn't like balance? But I thought we were discussing Vehicles vs Infantry and it seems we're talking about balance in general, and this train journey is not long enough for me to continue talking about that, suffice to say again, I'm indifferent and just get on with things.

If they want to play infantry, they should be able to play infantry in any circumstance.

Common sense needs to be used here when considering "any" circumstance.

Anyway, need to change trains so will continue later......






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ShadetheDruid]

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

..through an enemy tank Colin just to drop anti tank mines.

That is all.