Advanced Units - Page 5

Sledgecrushr · 2013-04-04, 03:10 PM

Im all for levels in this game. And perhaps after a certain level it might unlock a particular super cool camo or weapon skin. But I dont really believe that super experienced heavily certed veterans need any more advantage than what they already have over the new player.

Dragonskin · 2013-04-04, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

I love threads where you're basically 100% correct but are such a flaming asshole about it that I'm psychologically inclined to side with the other guy. You need to work on your bedside manner, friend.

This is why I occasionally agrue with Figment. I know he is right, but just feels like I should be against his posts. hahaha.

Rothnang · 2013-04-04, 05:23 PM

Being able to unlock something special for yourself doesn't mean it's overpowered and it doesn't mean new players are at a disadvantage. All it means is that you actually have long term goals and won't eventually get bored because as you earn more and more certs the very nature of the advancement system has you actively eroding your own strongsuits to turn into another jack of all trades character by forcing you to spend certs across the board instead of where you'd most want them.

This whole argument of "new players need access to everything" just makes no sense. There is not a shred of evidence in 15 years of MMOs that games do better when it's easy for new people to get everything but veterans have nothing to play for long term.

There is a sweet spot where your game is open enough to new players but has enough room to grow to keep people, and it's just silly that a bunch of people seem to be arguing that any slight move toward giving a game more meaningful long term goals would somehow ruin it for new players. There is simply no evidence for that anywhere in the MMO world, on the contrary, there are tons of games that have failed because there was nothing to play for after a month or two.

Figment · 2013-04-04, 05:50 PM

Again, you presume the game is so boring you need a carrot to have long term goals.

Why the fuck are you playing this game?

And where the fuck do you get an argument from that new players need access to everything? I've never once said that, yet you're clearly argueing with me. I believe in one of the first posts I said something about losing 75-90% of the available choices after selecting whatever it is you're allowed to have.

I'm about forcing players to make long term affecting decisions. You're just about adding more long term power and carrot gameplay: reach that next level, get that new cert... BORING! GET THE DAMN BASE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO ADVANCE YOUR EMPIRE AND BEAT YOUR ENEMY, NOT BECAUSE YOU WILL UNLOCK "PISTOL SILENCER"! How about you start playing the game, instead of letting the game play you for a fool!

Well Sergeant of the Master Sergeants Most Important Person Of Extreme Sergeants To The Max, why don't you actually try to understand what you're argueing with and about before you make a statement?

Also, look up the definition of meaningful, because I'm quite sure you've never looked it up. Grow some balls and start to play to beat your opponent and prove you're the better player, team and empire, not to grow your epeen by watching a ticker fill up and glee over obtaining a meaningless trinket everyone will get by simply time sinking.

You think getting the Auraxium AMS Driver merit made you special in PS1? You'd get that in a couple weeks regardless of whether you tried to get it or not: just have an AMS, you'll get it. Showing that off means what to other people? How about bragging about that time you (with or without your team) went in against 98% of the populace (all TR) on a continent and made them sit 15 more minutes in a facility because you got through their defenses and resecured?

THAT is something you can tell to your buddies and enemies. You think going "oh wow, I unlocked tier 75 pistol silencer!" means anything to other people aside from thinking you have no life?

Chaff · 2013-04-04, 05:57 PM

.

^
....right after you look up arrogant pompous condescending douchewibbler ?

LEVEL play for "new" players in PS1 ?....huh.

Assuming EQUAL SKILLS, a newb in PS1 had far LESS chance to survive a vet than a newb in PS2. I esentially base this on the TTK of PS2. A PS1 vet (BR20+) had pretty much any armor & weapon he needed and knew when and how to best use it. I don't see how that made a LEVEL playing field for newbs in that game. Breaking into PS1 was no picnic. Not for the average player anyway.

Again, the SAME people fail to be able to leave their ego at the door. ONE opinion is ONE opinion. Pompous arrogance does not add influence here - it greatly dimiishes it. It's sad (pathetic actually) when guys with such passion and knowledge of the game continually speak in an arrogant tone & manner. They lose all the cred they had before their egos stripped it away.

Most of us who can't shoot straight know it. Some guys seem to think better game skills (or stats) make them better people, or possess supior game ideas & opinions.

They're like the drunk local sports star (or a wannabe) who gets pulled over for a DUI .... and spouts, "...do you know who I am..?"

Some cats will NEVER get it. Some impress themselves by frequently replying to posts they find aborrant with a WALL OF TEXT ....... 99% of us scan past it ....their myopic polemic verbage that they think is scathingly brilliant because they feel superior to the average player.

I don't have to like or support one single thing rothnang (or others) posts. Who they are and how the choose to conduct themselves as people is what will, or won't, generate something worth "listening" to.

I support the guy. He puts out an opinion, and does so with class. Some people are unable or unwilling to return the common courtesys of human cohabitation. We "Kind of hear you", but essentially it immediately goes out the other ear. Quite ironic, because in Figgys case I've NEVER doubted his game knowledge, opinions, or passion for PS.
....it's the oddest thing to see him continaually undermine himself by being a horses ass wrinkle so much of the time.

.

Figment · 2013-04-04, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chaff

.

^
....right after you look up arrogant pompous condescending douchewibbler ?

Your point being people's ego gets hurt quickly and people don't have the attentionspan to read less than an A4 or two of text so people will never be able to graduate from high school? Sorry, I don't buy that. I get that people don't like getting smacked in the face and put in their place. But that doesn't mean it's arrogant, when the person who does so is actually right, perhaps, just perhaps, that person getting the lecture is due for one.

Walls of text don't exist. It's just an excuse lazy people use to excuse their own lack of reading discipline.

Why should I pretend to respect something I don't btw? Why should I lie to you or anyone else? Is that courtesy, or deception? I think deception is worse than being blunt, but hey. At least I'm honest. I don't mind you thinking what you think of me, I'm glad you told me. However, I disagree with you disposition we should all be nice to one another. I utterly despise the design attitude Rothnang's portraying as it is an insult to the average gamer's intelligence, presuming they're nothing but a horse chasing a carrot on a stick. That attitude has caused tons of 'modern' games to be of ever decreasing quality and making them more superficial and lacking in challenge and fairness. It's pretty much time someone says "enough is enough" and I'm not going to tolerate that argument, nor player elitism anywhere. in that respect it's funny you think he acts with class, while in reality he makes one insulting and arrogant assertion after the other, while also outright dismissing issues without addressing them or backing them up with argument. That's not courtesy, that's rude. Entitlement argumentation? That's downright arrogance and a lack of respect for other players by pretending you're more important.

Name me some MMOs released in the past years that hasn't copied the "advancement" and "random loot drop" systems in an attempt to veil from the player that there's no actual new content and replayability, nor progression, while abusing the completionist and instant satisfaction psychology to lull the player into thinking they're doing something more or better than before, while all they've done is made the game easier for the player - meaning the player needs LESS skill to do the same thing over time. By now a lot of players are so indoctrinated, they think it's a MUST and they even feel ENTITLED to it. Including Rothnang.

And I'm the one being arrogant? Good grief. I'm not the one claiming I should have more power over other people because I've been around longer. THAT is pompous and arrogant. Not to mention condescending. Guess I'm simply returning the favour.

Rothnang · 2013-04-04, 07:01 PM

We're all playing out a back and forth of different sides of an argument in the hopes that the devs will read it and find themselves inspired. What ultimately goes in the game should be the best that all of us have said and thought and written about, not any single one person's idea.

Self advocacy is part of that process. Everyone arguing for what's important to them personally instead of trying to dictate what should be important to others is what gives us the most truthful and genuine representation of what different sides of an issue have to say.

In this entire process it's important to remember not to poison the discussion however. Attacking the people behind the argument, or being so polarized that you can't even acknowledge the discussion as healthy simply doesn't create anything that's ultimately useful. Do you think any dev still reads this post if it's just people bashing their head against the wall? That doesn't help them one bit to refine their game.

Posting on a forum is not a tug of war between two sides of the argument where the winner takes all. It's more like a Ouija board that has many hands pulling in different directions that all together make a message. There are no winners or losers here, but if we all keep the process going in a friendly manner we can be helpful to the games development as a community. This whole upvote downvote mentality of just counting out "for" and "against" simply isn't helpful to create synergistic ideas that represent the best of all sides.

Kail · 2013-04-04, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Walls of text don't exist.

ORLY?

Edit: Direct image didn't work, /sadface

Obstruction · 2013-04-04, 07:26 PM

devs don't read crap like this. also you know what was truly great about PS1?

no assholes bringing up PS1 all the time.

edit: the word rothnang is looking for is "consensus" and i agree. but it's really not going to be found in 5 pages of wishing it was a different game and people calling each other names. with a game this complex they are likely to ruin it themselves by changing some formerly insignificant feature, without your help. just saying.

Figment · 2013-04-04, 07:31 PM

"That's all fine and dandy, but I'm a spoiled brat who wants more power to confirm I'm better than other players and in doing so I'll upset any and all delicate balance in game, but I don't care, because I get to have more power and thus kill people and be happy - that me getting a better K/D means others get a worse - especially new people - is totally irrelevant to me because by that time I'm not a new player anymore and I don't care".

That is what your argumentation behind the suggestion generally boils down to when I read it. You use eufemisms and of course would never call yourself spoiled or anything. But in the end, it's simply not a good suggestion because it is "but I want to be entitled". What's wrong with saying your feedback is horrible when it is? I'm not here to provide morale support, am I? Do I have to tread very careful to not step on the toes of people that think they're better designers than they are? What does that do?

I'm sorry if I don't have much if any respect for bad feedback, particularly not if the person stating it goes stubborn and basically says "but I want it and I don't see your issues, so let's move on". You can't demand respect for your ideas and expect to receive it. Quite the contrary. Selfish designers are the worst kind of designers in existence and the sooner they realise that, the better. You are the one in tunnelvision, you didn't accept any critique, manner of delivery aside: I already saw how you responded to the critique of others. Clearly, it didn't get through to you and I wonder if it will.

Ignoring you're currently a poor designer with a poor, selfish design attitude would not be doing you, me, the devs, the game, nor this debate any favours. I'm not going to pretend you're any good at it just to sustain your ego.

Be honest here:

How long had you thought about this before you posted it? How many different groups of players did you have in mind? Just the veterans who play for completionism? Beyond trivialising their disadvantage, did you look at it from a new player perspective by trying to place yourself in a new player position 5 years from now? What's the time period you considered? Short term (+/- month to half year of progression)? Did you ever consider the context of never ending cert supplies? Etc.

How many questions did you ask yourself before you posted this in the wrong forum section?

PS: Who's doing upvote/downvote? PS2 forums I suppose?
PS2: Note that this is strictly critique on your ability as a designer. You're not the only person I question their capabilities and attitude of in that regard. Hell, some of them do it for a living. I simply hate seeing those sort of mentalities and I always call people out on those things. I've seen enough of it to recognise it. It's a shame my critique is confused with bad manners. I expect people to be old enough to handle certain harsh critiques. I'd rather be blunt and harsh than subtle, sugarcoating and letting something linger.