No jumpad for attackers=AMP station ruined, More Stalmates..Welcome to StalemateSide - Page 6

Bobby Shaftoe · 2013-02-05, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Chewy

u wot?

You list a whole bunch of things entirely independent of whether ADS/Hip fire is the primary mechanic 'promoted' in game.

90% of ADS implementation is simply filling 1/3rd your screen with gun/sights and slowing you to a crawl so you can hit a target 5 metres away.

Also funny that you say 'learn each gun'... there is almost no differences in the guns available, especially if you compare them to the differences in Q3 rocket launcher, railgun, lighting gun or nade launcher, each of which exemplifying different aiming skills such as tracking (LG), prediction/leading(RL/GL), twitch/snap shots (rail).
PS2 is what, burst fire for a target 20 metres away?

ADS is Matrix Bullet-Time without the bullets being slowed.

Babyfark McGeez · 2013-02-05, 01:36 AM

ADS is just a glorified zoom with a tacked on animation and some movement/accuracy changes, what has that to do with the guns themselves or "learning" them? And also, why is this "allways needed" in todays shooters? Zooming worked very well in all the games i played before it got called "ADS" and was made "stylish".

I think i can sum up my dislike for ADS (and ESPECIALLY for knives and grenades being on extra keys) with this leonardo da vinci quote:

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”

psijaka · 2013-02-05, 01:58 AM

So this has turned from a thread about jump pad access at Amp stations to one about ADS being an unnecessary mechanic, of all things. Derailed!

Why don't you start a new thread, Babyfark? You're bound to attract a shedload of comments if you say that ADS is an "atrocity" in the title. And some of us would actally like to discuss jump pads in this thread

In fact, if you don't, I might just start one myself, quoting your posts!

psijaka · 2013-02-05, 02:09 AM

Back to the OP; you know, the one about restricted jump pad access at amp stations spoiling gameplay for attackers that like to ninja people.

Got involved in an intense NC defence of Zurvan on Ceres in the early hours of this morning, with the TR pressing hard and occasional incursions by the VS. I don't know how long it lasted, as I had to quit at 3am, but we were starting to get overwhelmed.

The base changes, including the jump pad changes, definately helped make the base feel more defensible; a real siege instead of just being swamped by attackers who turn up everywhere unexpectedly. And even when the attackers got in and took down the generators it wasn't over; the much stronger spawn room + no jump pad access meant that there was very little spawn camping even when things were going badly. Invading tanks had a particularly bad time of it. Epic.

Chewy · 2013-02-05, 02:53 AM

You guys really can't tell what makes each gun its own? Am I right to assume that you can't feel, see, or hear the differences between weapons?

Every single weapon in PS2 has its own set of stats and plays in its own way. It may just be a slower reload or fires a bit faster than another weapon but if you don't account for it you will find yourself losing battles. Those stats are not mere numbers on a spread sheet, they are vital things to know if you're going to be depending on a weapon. More so if you don't play just a single class 24/7.

As for the Quake guns, they are practically hit-scan except for the RPG and grenade launcher. The only skill needed to use those are getting into position and clicking at the right times. I never seen what made those games skill based outside of movement and twitch. All the skill I have ever seen in Quake matches come to 4 things.
1- Knowing the map
2- Exploiting movement systems to get map positions
3- Landing shots with nothing more than a twitch.
4- Landing grenades to force a players hand

You may find that skill based, I find it boring as hell. Outside of good grenade shots entire matches are point and clicks. I feel the same for COD and the crap it spawned. Boring as fucking hell games that need little more than knowing the map with some pointing and some clicking. At least in PS2 it takes a bit more than that to win fights. If you don't outsmart the enemy and take out important assets it WILL cost you the battle no matter how much skill you have and how many you kill.

Know what, Im done with this debate and I agree with psijaka. This thread is so derailed it's not funny. It's also clear to me that Im either getting baited again or we found some people that just don't know what they play anymore. Either way, it's pointless to keep debating something that others don't and refuse to understand.

(on topic)
I like the defender only jump pads. The fact that it is near impossible to jump all of over the base with a chunk of them removed defenders have to expose themselves at every gate and it makes for GREAT battles. Tonight a platoon or 2 of NC held an AMP station against the entire TR forces (2am dead server, it was all of them and us) for what felt like hours. We had to fight for every fucking inch to keep the gens alive and to get back those that got lost. Attackers had to work for their points and we made them earn them with blood and bullets. The combo of tunnels and defender only jump pads make for some fucking awesome last stands.

We even where able to repeal the attack and make an attack of our own. I crash before getting to the next base. Come to think of it. Why am I still typing this at 4 fucking AM? Going to bed. Goodnight.

Dreamcast · 2013-02-06, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by psijaka

Back to the OP; you know, the one about restricted jump pad access at amp stations spoiling gameplay for attackers that like to ninja people.

Got involved in an intense NC defence of Zurvan on Ceres in the early hours of this morning, with the TR pressing hard and occasional incursions by the VS. I don't know how long it lasted, as I had to quit at 3am, but we were starting to get overwhelmed.

The base changes, including the jump pad changes, definately helped make the base feel more defensible; a real siege instead of just being swamped by attackers who turn up everywhere unexpectedly. And even when the attackers got in and took down the generators it wasn't over; the much stronger spawn room + no jump pad access meant that there was very little spawn camping even when things were going badly. Invading tanks had a particularly bad time of it. Epic.

AMP stations could be held before for long hours of time....Like I said Zurvan was one of the best places because of how good you could hold off attackers.

I say the better spawn room with Jump pads for everyone would of made AMP stations amazing.

Originally Posted by psijaka

Perhaps you might like a game called Call of Duty.

But even in COD, hipfire was only really viable at very close range; anything beyond that and ADS was king (strange how I'm speaking in the past tense here).

+1

Perhaps a sign that SOE are heading in the right direction!

COD is an ADS game....Sure you can hipfire but primary ADS.

Originally Posted by Badjuju

God forbid that you need to use coordination and team work to capture a major base, such a shame. I hate that they are trying to make bases something you have to work for rather than just a different setting to fight in.

Lets not take some time to test new features, strategies, and develop the meta game either. We should just complain that every change is bad or too hard two days after its implemented.

God forbid you need coordination and team work to defend an AMP Station....you know how we did countless of times in Zurvan.

Is pathetic that this game is a just a huge stalemate that happens in the same bases and the same paths....This game has very limited paths to flank or do anything.....Horrible map design and now the only place where you could actually flank and had free movement which were the AMP stations are cut down to the same predictable Stalemate paths.....Come on.

Figment · 2013-02-06, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dreamcast

Is pathetic that this game is a just a huge stalemate that happens in the same bases and the same paths....This game has very limited paths to flank or do anything.....Horrible map design and now the only place where you could actually flank and had free movement which were the AMP stations are cut down to the same predictable Stalemate paths.....Come on.

Sounds like someone hasn't ever used Light Assault.

Same paths, no flanking routes, lolwut? I got about 20+ options to approach a single building, let alone the sheer amount of paths to move through a courtyard.

If you can't flank in this game where there's at minimal 3 flank options, you just suck.

Dreamcast · 2013-02-06, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Sounds like someone hasn't ever used Light Assault.

Same paths, no flanking routes, lolwut? I got about 20+ options to approach a single building, let alone the sheer amount of paths to move through a courtyard.

If you can't flank in this game where there's at minimal 3 flank options, you just suck.

lol yeah man, gonna try to flank the biodome teleporter shield room lol.

All the stalemates take place on the same exact place....Sucks that crappy design was made to make 50 people fit on one little spot.

Figment · 2013-02-06, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dreamcast

lol yeah man, gonna try to flank the biodome teleporter shield room lol.

Like yeah man, you got four teleporter exits (two teleporters with two exits facing different areas each), two very wide airpad entrances, each allowing you to get on top of buildings and move ion 360 degrees away from them...

Like, do something with them man!

MAYBE if they COULD defend the CY, they wouldn't all be inside desperately blocking the teleporters and airpad and they'd spread out a bit?

KaskaMatej · 2013-02-06, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dreamcast

AMP stations could be held before for long hours of time....Like I said Zurvan was one of the best places because of how good you could hold off attackers.

I'm not sure on what server you play on, but Zurvan usually fell in under an hour on Mattherson. Because, you know, there are big outfits there, like GOON, SG, BL, CML, AT, GOTR, TEST, TE, BONK, AOD, etc... They have the man power to have had 50 people on towers, using jumpads and crush any and all defender force coming out of spawn room.

Zurvan is actually the easiest Amp Station to attack really, because it's in a canyon, so you can't hold satellite spawns for long without being shelled by attackers from on-top of cliffs.

Originally Posted by Dreamcast

ADS game...

What the hell is an ADS game? Some special genre of first person shooters? Google doesn't say anything about ADS games as one. What is the definition of an ADS game and not YOUR definition I might add?

maradine · 2013-02-06, 10:39 AM

If the defenders hold a location, we call that "winning". When you keep throwing yourself at them with the same force size and composition, we call that "losing". When pork belly is skinned and fried, we call that "bacon".

Christ, I need to have breakfast before logging in here.

VR Draco · 2013-02-06, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by maradine

If the defenders hold a location, we call that "winning". When you keep throwing yourself at them with the same force size and composition, we call that "losing". When pork belly is skinned and fried, we call that "bacon".

Christ, I need to have breakfast before logging in here.

This!

I don't see the point why HAS the attacker to win a fight? And if the attacker won't win you call this stalemate?
If the defenders don't have the manpower to attack itself a successfull defence is achieved, when the attackers don't makes any progress. Then the attackers should retreat, but this won't happen, because everybody is greedy for the next kill.

So try to call this "stalemate" a loose and everything is fine.

Chewy · 2013-02-06, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by KaskaMatej

What the hell is an ADS game? Some special genre of first person shooters? Google doesn't say anything about ADS games as one. What is the definition of an ADS game and not YOUR definition I might add?

Iv been waiting for an answer since page 4 for that question. He thinks that any game with ADS aiming is an ADS shooter and should be put in a sub genre. Seems like he doesn't understand just what he is talking about does it? Either that or it's in his head that games from the 90s and early 00s are not worthy to be in the same room as games of today.

I can almost agree with the 2nd bit, but that is my childhood talking and it's a fact that those games are FAR from greatest things to exist. I love me some Duke 3D and still have fond memories of a FPS Aliens game on Sega Saturn but Id never call them better games from using the standards of today's games (minus graphics and limited controls).

Wahooo · 2013-02-06, 06:46 PM

I've skipped a lot of this thread but since this page and the first look almost identical I'll just assume all the pages in between are filled with the exact same stuff.

I don't understand this non-flanking thing... do you understand the term flanking? Aren't you a pro-PS1 guy? Because, as a pro-PS1 guy here there is no where near the same extent choke points and the same old paths to base entry. Farm and interlink ever? I played a bunch with groups that looked for about 3:1 pop disadvantage on purpose to exploit all the choke points.

The changes to the AMP station have been great. It is such a great move toward balance. The towers and walls are now useful to the defenders. Previously the were suicide to try and defend from and much more useful for the attackers. I've seen facilities defended finally! I've also seen facilities like AMP stations taken by a much smaller force than the one defending through coordination and exploiting the choke points.

I don't see stalemates. I see a better balance between offense and defense.