Shotgunside 2 - Page 6

DrankTHEKoolaid · 2013-03-20, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shamrock

I use one, they need to be nerfed, the fire rate is too close to an auto-shotty.

The fire rate of the pump is less than half of the semi auto shotguns and even further away from the auto shotties.

Snydenthur · 2013-03-20, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Emperor Newt

If the player does not have the feeling he is on an even playing level he feels cheated. And as calling hax doesn't work they say it's op. Although the problem is simply flawed game design.

Well, there's the problem. Games are not supposed to be even, that would be the most boring game ever. First, there is skill, that alone makes the games uneven. Second, there needs to be different kinds of weapon. How would you balance them other than having some that are great at something or jack-of-all-trades? Your post makes it seem like every weapon should be the same.

Tenhi · 2013-03-20, 02:06 PM

If they nerf the pellet spread of the pumpgun everything is fine. Right now it has the lowest pellet spread together with the 6-Shot Semiauto.

Also looking at the old shotguns. Why did they normalize the ammo pool?-_- The only reason to buy the Nova was the larger ammo pool...

DrankTHEKoolaid · 2013-03-20, 02:13 PM

As much as I love the pumps, I only like using them in smaller battles. Frame rates are a natural nerf to them lol.

moosepoop · 2013-03-20, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by wasdie

To expand on this, I use the shotgun in pretty much every situation unless there is absolutely no cover for infantry.

If you know how to use your light assault (and it's not hard to do) the shotgun is rarely not the weapon you want to use.

It's broken. Simple as that. Shotguns need a massive nerf across the board.

yep. i use only autoshotgun on my light assault and engineer, but from the first kill with the pump action i knew its definitely unbalanced.

Originally Posted by Shamrock

I use one, they need to be nerfed, the fire rate is too close to an auto-shotty.

i agree. the combination of firing rate/range/damage hitting all the sweet spots is the problem.

when i miss with the pump action, i usually have enough time to kill on second or third hit. with heavy assault shield you can buy enough time to kill on the 5th hit, its guarenteed for me.

Emperor Newt · 2013-03-20, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Snydenthur

Well, there's the problem. Games are not supposed to be even, that would be the most boring game ever. First, there is skill, that alone makes the games uneven. Second, there needs to be different kinds of weapon. How would you balance them other than having some that are great at something or jack-of-all-trades? Your post makes it seem like every weapon should be the same.

I really don't know where you get the impression from. I actually express that this should not be the case.

But as English is not my native lanuguage, to make my point more clear: Skill will always make games uneven. No doubt about that. But once a weapon takes very little skill to use "too effectively" and it takes way more skill to actually counter it, something is very wrong with the design of it.

It actually should be the other way round. In competetive games skill always works in the way that the most rewarding ways to score kills (or whatever matters) are the hardest ones to pull off.
The problem with pump action shotguns is that they are too forgiving, especially concerning range and that there are infinite respawns and even if you can kill him the player will be back shortly after. If there must be one shot one kill guns they should be absolutely deadly in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize their full potential. But currently this is not the case.
Their use is too simple, too easy. It's very easy to pick them up and annoy other players with it, but very hard for players on the recieving end to counter them. That's what is causing the uproar against it.
Compare it with bold action sniper rifles, which take quiet some training to be deadly with them. It's not that hard to hit, but to pull off headshots over long distances is something that is pretty hard to learn and takes some real dedication.
Now with shotguns it will be pretty hard to bring them in line without overnerfing them. I don't say that it's impossible, but they could have saved themself the trouble. There is a reason why one shot one kill weapons are rarely seen outside of sniper rifles and maybe stuff like rocket launchers.

Figment · 2013-03-20, 07:15 PM

Currently I feel the amount of SMGs and shotguns push the standard weapons completely into obsoletion. Which is quite impressive considering the TTKs were already insanely low.

Problem for me is I'm being one and two shot by shotguns at ranges where I can't hipfire (which is pretty damn inaccurate anyway even with full attachments) and often need more than a clip with a Mercenary with burst fire because despite the reticule being on target, every shot missing (fun, that random wide spread to either side of a player...).

There's just no competing possible against too many things in this game and tbh, that is making an already excruciatingly annoying game with regards to reaching objectives even more annoying. :/

How many lives does one need to reach an objective if they just keep introducing more one and two hit kill weapons?

Underbarrel grenade launchers, indoor proximity mines, shotguns, SMGs, sniper rifles, HE, it's getting extremely annoying. Especially when so many of the bigger outfits have tons of people with those short TTK weapons... Oh well. Zerg must rule everything don't they.

DeltaGun · 2013-03-20, 09:02 PM

Welcome to Shotgunside 2.

Seriously devs.. seriously? If you are going to make pump actions mandatory then just give them for free.

moosepoop · 2013-03-20, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by DeltaGun

Welcome to Shotgunside 2.

Seriously devs.. seriously? If you are going to make pump actions mandatory then just give them for free.

SOE needs to send their human resources to check the marketing department, theres a psychopath in the office.

this is outright ruthless exploitation, and whoever is directing this is going to kill the game.

Figment · 2013-03-20, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by moosepoop

SOE needs to send their human resources to check the marketing department, theres a psychopath in the office.

this is outright ruthless exploitation, and whoever is directing this is going to kill the game.

There's reaction and overreaction. >.>

The more logical conclusion would be they probably simply didn't anticipate this much usage and didn't expect them to be this powerful in actual combat.

They seem to have underestimated a lot of their designs in terms of impact, it's the first time for many and there's no test server to get feedback.

Snydenthur · 2013-03-20, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Emperor Newt

The problem with pump action shotguns is that they are too forgiving, especially concerning range and that there are infinite respawns and even if you can kill him the player will be back shortly after. If there must be one shot one kill guns they should be absolutely deadly in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize their full potential. But currently this is not the case.

Have you tried them in an actual fight? They might seem like the best weapon ever, if you try it in vr against immobile targets. But on real battle, it's really hard to win against other weapons out of a range of 10 meters (which really isn't much). The almost sure one shot kill range of 0-5m usually requires good reflexes. Pump actions are very unforgiving. Most of the time you only get one shot against an average player. If you miss it, you're dead.

I would love to see some footage of a complete newbie to the game pick up the pump action. I would bet on him/her failing to get much kills, when with carbine he/she would actually stand a better chance.

Even I, who has used shotgun in every situation for a while now, am actually going back to using a carbine in every situation, since it's just so much better. You don't have those annoying out-of-range situations inside and you can engage the long range targets too. For close range, TTK is so good and I know the pump action well enough to have no problem going against them. Well, a few of them. I still haven't seen much pump action shotguns around miller, most of the enemy are using semi auto shotguns or the class weapons with a few occasional smg-users.

Neutral Calypso · 2013-03-20, 09:41 PM

This really is a "right tool for the job" sort of thing. I typically grab a nighthawk when in CQC, a Lynx/MSW-R/TRV when I think I got to switch between CQC and outdoors combat a lot, and a Jaguar/TMG-50/NS-11 when I got to do mainly outdoors stuff.

Sifer2 · 2013-03-20, 09:56 PM

It's because they are OP, and more people are figuring it out. You can easily see how broken they are in VR training. One shot kill bodyshot at typical indoor range engagements. Meaning indoors there is no competitiveness. The person with the Pump wins regardless of skill.

Then equip it with slugs, and discover it's a fast two body shot kill out to surprisingly long ranges. This shotgun actually out performs AR's at typical mid range engagement range. It only loses once damage degradation finally kicks in a long ways out. This is more powerful than the Pistol from Halo:CE.

Twido · 2013-03-21, 08:37 AM

Having been watching this thread for a while, it is clear that people fall into one of two camps: Those that have shotguns and think they are loads of fun but not OP, then there are those that don't have them and are fed up of been easily killed by them when fighting indoors.

Leaving aside all the arguments of limited range, situationality and capture points, my worry is that they turn new players away from the game. New players won't typically have access to these guns and, since they are still learning, are more likely to be killed in general. When shot at by a standard gun, there is more oppertunity to react and understand the mistakes you are making. When its a shotgun all you get is frustraition. Since new players are the lifeblood of the game and, having not yet invested significant time or money in it are more likely just to quit, this harms its long term prospects

For the record, I don't think pump action shotguns are any worse than automatic ones. But since both these types are already implimented, it would be very difficult to nerf them without causing an uproar.

Snydenthur · 2013-03-21, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Twido

Leaving aside all the arguments of limited range, situationality and capture points, my worry is that they turn new players away from the game. New players won't typically have access to these guns and, since they are still learning, are more likely to be killed in general. When shot at by a standard gun, there is more oppertunity to react and understand the mistakes you are making. When its a shotgun all you get is frustraition. Since new players are the lifeblood of the game and, having not yet invested significant time or money in it are more likely just to quit, this harms its long term prospects

New players are turned away from the game because they aren't ready to watch few videos to learn what to do. And if they aren't good fps players in the first place, they will die a lot and very fast to every weapon there is. After that they just return to bf3 or cod, since they are the most newbie friendly fps-games. And cod even has one-shot-kill snipers and shotguns. Bf3 has one shot kill shotguns (and sniper rifles in close range).