Question I REALLY want answered. - Page 6

Headrattle · 2011-07-15, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rbstr

Because the original system didn't allow for that at all....It was never just as easy as going to a terminal and grabbing an AV gun or saved loadout.

And by never I mean, it happened at day 1.

Provided that they had the cert. Remember that. Crucial point. You can't get it if you don't have the cert.

MasterChief096 · 2011-07-15, 05:34 PM

They should just use the cert system and inventory system from PlanetSide 1. Best damn systems ever created for inventory and character management.

OR, as I previously mentioned, you should have to drop classes similar to how you drop certs in PlanetSide 1. If you want to switch from Assault Class to Tank Driver Class you have to suffer a six hour timer before switching to another class.

I am also a little fearful of long-time players having the more maneuvrable, durable, and powerful reaver, as stated earlier. It just doesn't seem right. I hope that they are really serious about listening to the community during beta when it comes to things like this.

dachlatte · 2011-07-15, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

They should just use the cert system and inventory system from PlanetSide 1. Best damn systems ever created for inventory and character management.

OR, as I previously mentioned, you should have to drop classes similar to how you drop certs in PlanetSide 1. If you want to switch from Assault Class to Tank Driver Class you have to suffer a six hour timer before switching to another class.

i still dont see why the class changing is such a bad thing? if you have 500 people on the other side you can not possible notice if the medic you just killed comes back as a max or whatever.
but the poor guy you killed has all the options to be effective in every battle. just as you do. that sounds like fun to me and we all play to have fun.

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

I am also a little fearful of long-time players having the more maneuvrable, durable, and powerful reaver, as stated earlier. It just doesn't seem right. I hope that they are really serious about listening to the community during beta when it comes to things like this.

on that point i agree with you. i have the same concern but i guess we have to wait for beta to see if it works or not.

Headrattle · 2011-07-15, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by dachlatte

i still dont see why the class changing is such a bad thing? if you have 500 people on the other side you can not possible notice if the medic you just killed comes back as a max or whatever.
but the poor guy you killed has all the options to be effective in every battle. just as you do. that sounds like fun to me and we all play to have fun.

The inclusion of classes would change the game of planetside on one of the basic levels. And we only have real information of the current game of planetside. A lot of the balance was because of the cert aspect, and a lot of the game will have to change to include it. The more changes you make, you could make this a very unfun game.

Example:
You drive vehicles. You and your vehicle outfit are making a raid on a base. Now under planetside some of the guys will have the AV certs that will destroy you. Not all. So they see the vehicles coming and they say "incoming vehicles" and those with the certs will be able to get rid of you. You lose some vehicles and the dead raise themselves at a nearby tower. They still have anti-infantry to fight them off. But no player is able to do everything because they don't have the certs to do everything.

Now, to a class based system. This is the way it seems to work in lots of class based FPS's that I have played. You run in with vehicles. The defenders go all AV, kill your Vehicles and then go all Anti-infantry and kill your infantry. With the ability to fill any tactical gap instantly, it is harder to take advantage of any tactical gap. It becomes a grudge match, duking it out until the other team decides to log off.

Enter in the second fear. If you are already able to do everything, then the only way that experience will matter is if you are able to do somethings much better through an increase in damage, maneuverability, or whatever. Thus, those who start the game aren't able to compete with those who have been playing a while. That is unfun. Much more unfun then classes are fun.

Volw · 2011-07-15, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

The inclusion of classes would change the game of planetside on one of the basic levels. And we only have real information of the current game of planetside. A lot of the balance was because of the cert aspect, and a lot of the game will have to change to include it. The more changes you make, you could make this a very unfun game.

Example:
You drive vehicles. You and your vehicle outfit are making a raid on a base. Now under planetside some of the guys will have the AV certs that will destroy you. Not all. So they see the vehicles coming and they say "incoming vehicles" and those with the certs will be able to get rid of you. You lose some vehicles and the dead raise themselves at a nearby tower. They still have anti-infantry to fight them off. But no player is able to do everything because they don't have the certs to do everything.

Now, to a class based system. This is the way it seems to work in lots of class based FPS's that I have played. You run in with vehicles. The defenders go all AV, kill your Vehicles and then go all Anti-infantry and kill your infantry. With the ability to fill any tactical gap instantly, it is harder to take advantage of any tactical gap. It becomes a grudge match, duking it out until the other team decides to log off.

Enter in the second fear. If you are already able to do everything, then the only way that experience will matter is if you are able to do somethings much better through an increase in damage, maneuverability, or whatever. Thus, those who start the game aren't able to compete with those who have been playing a while. That is unfun. Much more unfun then classes are fun.

I have yet to see a proper large fight in PS1, when there are either only ground vehicles, only air vehicles (reaver spam doesn't count!) or only infantry.

Switching classes in both cases means getting off the wall or defensive position for a few minutes when the enemy will be able to push through.

Also, with BR25+, it's hard not to pack HA/AV/Eng/Med.

dachlatte · 2011-07-16, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

The more changes you make, you could make this a very unfun game.

why does the glass have to be half empty all the time. and i dont know about you but when i see matt talk about the game he sounds really passionate.

Originally Posted by Volw

I have yet to see a proper large fight in PS1, when there are either only ground vehicles, only air vehicles (reaver spam doesn't count!) or only infantry.

Switching classes in both cases means getting off the wall or defensive position for a few minutes when the enemy will be able to push through.

Also, with BR25+, it's hard not to pack HA/AV/Eng/Med.

^this
and also...alot of people these days say: but the enemy can just switch to a better suited class and kill me.
think of it the other way around. you can do the same.

Volw · 2011-07-16, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by dachlatte

^this
and also...alot of people these days say: but the enemy can just switch to a better suited class and kill me.
think of it the other way around. you can do the same.

I think there is going to be a lot of whining because of that among PS vets.

Why? Loosing Rambo status will hurt!

We can HA/AV/Heal/Repair/Hack/CE without changing loadouts. That's 6 classes 6 right there!

Headrattle · 2011-07-16, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Volw

I think there is going to be a lot of whining because of that among PS vets.

Why? Loosing Rambo status will hurt!

We can HA/AV/Heal/Repair/Hack/CE without changing loadouts. That's 6 classes 6 right there!

Yeah... Try that. You won't have any ammo, and when you had a lower BR ceiling, you wouldn't be any good at any of that. I don't like the high BR either. But that isn't really the point. I more question the implications involved. If you can be anything then they need to make the experience aspect worth it. As such, they will have to make the more experienced players do more damage, or be faster or whatever. With PS1 it was options for the higher BR players, not power. With classes I don't see anyway it couldn't be power. In fact he says it will be power. Up to 20% damage.

why does the glass have to be half empty all the time. and i dont know about you but when i see matt talk about the game he sounds really passionate.

People can be passionate about a bad idea. Ever play the PS1 Beta without the Lattuce system? It was horrible. People would run past each other to hack the base you just hacked ignoring you. There was more experience in hacking then fighting. You don't think that they were passionate about that? It took a player to come up with the idea of the lattuce system He had picks that he made and everything. They took most of his idea (though not everything) and made the lattuce system. But it wasn't easy. They simply didn't think about the implications of the none lattuce system.

You don't think that Smokejumper was passionate about the BFRs? He was pimping them left and right. They were all stoked. Yet... it was a bad idea. Or the caves? Was that a good idea? They were very passionate about it at the time.

I am just throwing the question out there. I really like planetside back in the day. Then they made some changes and introduced some bad ideas and people left. Which is my point. If you get too far away from what made planetside fun, will we enjoy it?

The Cert system was a good system. It just seems like they have an idea of making your character more customizable. Which is a good idea. But to do that they have to throw away the cert system as we know it. Could it be good? Yes. Could it be bad? Yes. I am more interested in how they will do this without giving the higher level players an advantage with damage or whatever. Believe it or not, 20% is a lot. That would kill an FPS. You are flying a reaver and getting your ass kicked because the other reaver's rockets do 20% more damage? And he is faster? And he has something that makes you do less damage? I am simply asking the question "Is that wise?" How can you attract new players like that?

Not all of the stuff they talked about is bad. In fact most of it isn't. The territory thing is wonderful. Excellent idea. The resources, I hold my judgement on, but I can see the potential. But I am stoked. There are a lot of things that they are talking about that the PS community wanted 6 years ago.

Volw · 2011-07-16, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

Believe it or not, 20% is a lot. That would kill an FPS.

noob vs someone with all unlocks

CoD4-6 -> better weapons, mods and perks

BF2 -> better weapons

BFBC2 -> arguably better weapons and unlocks (magnum rounds come to mind)

Should I go on?

Even PS arguably gives more power with levels by allowing to turn one into a multi-tasking super-soldier.

Headrattle · 2011-07-16, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Volw

noob vs someone with all unlocks

CoD4-6 -> better weapons, mods and perks

BF2 -> better weapons

BFBC2 -> arguably better weapons and unlocks (magnum rounds come to mind)

Should I go on?

Even PS arguably gives more power with levels by allowing to turn one into a multi-tasking super-soldier.

None of those games make it 20% more damage then the other guys. Slightly more damage? Yes. But not 20% better. Have you played those games? Most of the unlocks are for prestige then actual damage or ability. In CoD many of the weapons you get later still aren't that much better then the weapons you get at a lower level. Even then, CoD is a bad game for PS2 to model after. So is Battlefield in my opinion.

Yes. Taken to extremes PS can do that. But before the higher BR cap it wasn't possible to get too over powered. Like I said, making a guy who could sneak in, hack a base and then turn into a max and guard the CC could be done at 10 certs. That isn't very high of a level. In the end, you were given more options, but not more power. There is a difference.

Volw · 2011-07-16, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

None of those games make it 20% more damage then the other guys. Slightly more damage? Yes. But not 20% better. Have you played those games? Most of the unlocks are for prestige then actual damage or ability. In CoD many of the weapons you get later still aren't that much better then the weapons you get at a lower level. Even then, CoD is a bad game for PS2 to model after. So is Battlefield in my opinion.

Have I played those games? I think I should ask you the same.

BFBC2 Magnum rounds alone are +25% damage. Not counting in other unlockable gear, weapons and mods.

BF2 - not played for ages, but back in the day, unlocks were vastly superior to other weapons

CoD - stopping power adds 40% more damage. Not even counting the fact better weapons require unlocking and weapon mods give you even more advantages.

I think we can clearly see all of the above add MUCH more than 20% and I don't see any of those games are dead as you claim.

Headrattle · 2011-07-16, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Volw

Have I played those games? I think I should ask you the same.

BFBC2 Magnum rounds alone are +25% damage. Not counting in other unlockable gear, weapons and mods.

BF2 - not played for ages, but back in the day, unlocks were vastly superior to other weapons

CoD - stopping power adds 40% more damage. Not even counting the fact better weapons require unlocking and weapon mods give you even more advantages.

I think we can clearly see all of the above add MUCH more than 20% and I don't see any of those games are dead as you claim.

To be fair, Stopping Power is available very early in the game. You can get it as soon as you can create your class. So that doesn't exactly disprove my point.

However, you have made your point. I wasn't aware that magnum rounds did 25% damage.

I will admit that those perks and abilities were what I always saw as a weak point in those games. I much prefer the PS cert tree then the "I kill more!" tree. Plus, in my opinion CoD and especially BF has lots of flaws. (but still fun at times.)

dachlatte · 2011-07-16, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

BFR, lattice and caves

yes those changes had a huge impact but i cant see how the class system can fail so bad. lets hope the beta doesnt proof me wrong.

as i said earlier. i agree with you on the damage bonus. i dont like it and i didnt like it in bfbc2. magnum rounds and the other upgrades can be very frustrating for a new player.

Hamma · 2011-07-16, 11:59 AM

The lattice was added in pretty short order, they knew that was bad.

And I'm sure they would admit that BFR's and Caves were bad ideas now as well if you asked them.

Coreldan · 2011-07-16, 01:11 PM

The original APB had something like a 20% difference in output on a maxed char and a new character. Given, these people would've beaten the new players through experience as well, but for an online shooter, just about everyone found the model unacceptable.

During the discussions on APB forums about that, Planetsides "horizontal progress" was much praised. I don't mind veterans having more options easily at hand and all that, but I would NEVER EVER go down the road of more raw output just cos ur an older player.