Planetside 2 Classes vs Certs - Page 6

Red Beard · 2012-07-04, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by disky

Honestly, before I started playing PS1 again a few days ago and realized that people were now BR40 and could do everything I would have agreed with you. I loved the classless system. It had enough cert points to allow your character to specialize just enough. Then they increased the max BR and it ruined the balance of the game.

Which is why I've come around to the class system. There's no way they can screw it up like they did in PS1. This is coming from a guy who's favorite MMORPG is still Ultima Online, a totally classless game.

Both the infiltrator and engineer have access to mines, but the infiltrator only has access to anti-infantry mines.

This...the BR system caused you to be rewarded for specialization, but when I started watching again the BR are just so high wrecks it IMO. I think they did this as a quick fix for appeasing people that wanted 'more content', so it looks like they threw them that bone, but distorted the game mechanics a bit when they did.

OnexBigxHebrew · 2012-07-04, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

Wouldn't want to get tar in that beautiful hair, now would we?

...about that...

Metalsheep · 2012-07-05, 11:23 AM

Couldn't you just play Medic? You already have recharging Shields, assuming medics can heal themselves, it would be just like PS1. They just don't have AV at all times. And HA doesn't matter as much due to really fast TTKs.

I liked the old cert system. People basically delegated themselves into classes on their own. But they could also hybridize the classes too. Like a medic cloaker, or a Engineer Sniper. It wasn't really until BR 25-40 that the one-man-army Rexo Grunt became commonplace as well as MAX spam.

Talek Krell · 2012-07-05, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

I liked the old cert system. People basically delegated themselves into classes on their own. But they could also hybridize the classes too. Like a medic cloaker, or a Engineer Sniper. It wasn't really until BR 25-40 that the one-man-army Rexo Grunt became commonplace as well as MAX spam.

Having a class system doesn't necessarily prevent including unusual combinations, it simply allows the devs finer control over which ones are possible.

Classes allow people some adaptability without letting things get out of hand. If the fight you're in desperately needs a medic, then you can be a medic. You may not be a great medic, but at least you won't have to recall to sanc/wait 4 more hours because you wanted to try the tank today.

Kezz · 2012-07-06, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

Having a class system doesn't necessarily prevent including unusual combinations, it simply allows the devs finer control over which ones are possible.

It allows the devs finer control than in PS1. If they put a couple of days concentrated thought into it, they could easily control which combinations are possible.

PS1's system started out "mostly fit for purpose" and became less so as time went on and BRs got higher and higher. I must confess, I'd not realised the cap had been raised from 25. 25 was pushing it when I played last, but even at a cap of 40, Advanced Hackers aren't exactly common.

The thing with class systems is they only ever allow the combinations the devs have thought of, and that's never enough. Decades of experience in proper RPGs confirms this. Any class-based system ends up spawning expansions with hybrid class after hybrid class because people like to be able to do the 2 things they want to do together. They want to cast magic and use a sword, so they're happy to have the Warlock class that's a good bit worse than a Mage at magic, and a good bit worse than a fighter at fighting with a sword. Because they think they can make it work, or hell, they just want to mix it up a little.

And anyone who thinks they can't fuck up the balance of the classes just as bad as they screwed PS1 is in la-la land.

This remake is screaming "Driven by the beancounters" to me. When Higby said "Let's do PS2," the money men hemmed and hawed for a bit and said "Yeah, copy the most popular FPS, and add persistence to it." Which of course will work, same as SWTOR did, when they copied the most popular MMORPG and added storyline to it. For those of you not au fait with recent MMO history, SWTOR was a stinker (at least relative to the expectations raised); my WoW guild was really looking forward to it, and of the people I know who got the game, no more than 10% are still playing it.

Classes exist as crutches. A crutch for the hard-of-thinking who can't pick skills to support a role. A crutch for game designers who can't find mechanics to prevent abuse of the freedom. Classes also have retro appeal to some people, but retro appeal in the PS "idiom" would have a cert-based system.

Littleman · 2012-07-06, 08:34 PM

Problem is... the mechanics that prevent the abuse of freedom pretty much align with a class system. It's a false sense of freedom, and it really can be just as restricted. The class system just spells out what one could put together into a single kit. "If you want a med app, you can't carry a sniper rifle, heavy armor, minigun, rocket launcher, etc." Instead of simply picking up the med app and fading the rest of these items out, you pick a medic and it sets you up with a basic load out that the medic can equip, and only shows you what the medic can equip. Picking the HA class is essentially like equipping the rexo armor, and all the support tools are faded out as a result.

There's no two ways around this. People are getting hung up on the word "class," despite the act of restricting one from setting up the old school "all-rounder" OP loadout being the purpose, with or without the "class" label. And then we do have people complaining they've lost their free-form load-outs, but clearly, the plan isn't to allow anyone to freely choose the default/most common load out seen in Planetside 1, so their argument is moot. It ain't changing.

Studies show that when people are given too many options, they tend to go with the first option or none at all. There was no mention of it, but I'm sure being told by someone with experience which option(s) to choose can greatly influence their decision. Planetside 2 will have 6 classes neatly lined up, and players can pick the general flavor they prefer and retool it to their specifications from there.

If this concept somehow upsets you, tough $#!%: welcome to being the (elite?) minority.

It's possible the devs could make one class undeniably THE class to be but it'd be much easier to fix, though I believe killwhores outnumbering support minded players, rexo/LA/MAX will be very common by default.

Retro appeal in the PS idiom wouldn't be doing PS2 any favors. It's 2012. The FPS market and it's player base has changed.

Kezz · 2012-07-06, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Littleman

Problem is... the mechanics that prevent the abuse of freedom pretty much align with a class system.

Wrong-o. They can do. Any system can be badly designed. But they can also be set up to permit a far wider variety of combinations than any class system can in the same amount of development time.

...their argument is moot. It ain't changing.

It's all moot. You're right, the decision has been made in another place, and it's a fucking crying shame.

Retro appeal in the PS idiom wouldn't be doing PS2 any favors. It's 2012. The FPS market and it's player base has changed.

Aye. Probably right there. I mentioned it only because some good friends are keen on the "retro" gaming movement (if it can be called something as grandiose as a "movement"), who don't need the crutches (as most games players don't, if only game designers would see that), but like to play "old school" games that have them as integral parts of the systems. PS2 should be as forward-looking as it can be.

If Higby et al have produced something that can transcend the inherent stifling bonds of a class-based system, I'll be near the head of the line to congratulate them. From what I've seen, I'm not optimistic.

Littleman · 2012-07-06, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kezz

Wrong-o. They can do. Any system can be badly designed. But they can also be set up to permit a far wider variety of combinations than any class system can in the same amount of development time.

Hah, no. Restrictions on a per equipment basis or restrictions on a class basis, the developers have complete control over what one is allowed to combine. The medic could have access to every weapon and tool in game except smoke grenades if they so chose. The issue here is that a wider variety of combinations actually encourages less combinations over all: there will naturally just be THE combos to have (see: rexo/weapons/medapp/glue) the more freedom there is offered.

Also, the individual classes can grow fairly powerful in their own right with their certs separated as they are. Imagine combining a fully certs med app with a fully certed rexo armor and HA/AV. Good times for the new guys...

The level of restrictions we see in PS2 are exactly the restrictions SOE wants the players to work with, again, like I said, with or without the class label or mechanic. There wasn't a magical "make classes" button and the engine set specific equipment combinations up for them. Classes just streamline the process of selecting equipment that is compatible with the defining tool of the "class," such as a med app (medic,) nano dispenser and ACE (engineer,) jetpack (light assault,) heavy assault (rexo,) infiltrator (stealth suit/sniper rifle.) MAX should be pretty self explanatory to a vet.

Kezz · 2012-07-07, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by Littleman

Hah, no. Restrictions on a per equipment basis or restrictions on a class basis, the developers have complete control over what one is allowed to combine.

Well, duh.

The difference between a class based system and a skill based one is that the former only has the permitted combinations that have been precreated and the latter only excludes the combinations that have been determined to be "overpowered". Yes, it permits underpowered combos too, but people will make mistakes when they cert anyway.

...there will naturally just be THE combos to have (see: rexo/weapons/medapp/glue)...

This will be true whatever choices are offered. Even in PS1 (which I'll reiterate: I'm not holding up as some paragon of perfect design), that "base loadout" didn't use up all your certs, even at BR25 cap; there was still variation on top of that.

Also, the individual classes can grow fairly powerful in their own right with their certs separated as they are. Imagine combining a fully certs med app with a fully certed rexo armor and HA/AV. Good times for the new guys...

Yeah, that'd be dumb, if the med app worked as well with the HA as it would with the medic armour. It'd be like putting rails on a ship with an AC bonus (that's an EVE reference): you can do it if you think you can make it work because of other factors. You're just showing you haven't really applied your imagination to the potentials.

The level of restrictions we see in PS2 are exactly the restrictions SOE wants the players to work with...

Again, duh. They wrote the thing. It'd be a bit odd if they somehow managed to put in restrictions they didn't want.

They're just lacking in vision.

Classes just streamline the process of selecting equipment that is compatible with the defining tool of the "class," such as a med app (medic,) nano dispenser and ACE (engineer,) jetpack (light assault,) heavy assault (rexo,) infiltrator (stealth suit/sniper rifle.) MAX should be pretty self explanatory to a vet.

Again, no. They do do that, but a) it's not necessary, b) guidance for the newb can be achieved through other means, and c) it's taking away from something players really enjoy doing.

roguy · 2012-07-07, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Kezz

The difference between a class based system and a skill based one is that the former only has the permitted combinations that have been precreated and the latter only excludes the combinations that have been determined to be "overpowered". Yes, it permits underpowered combos too, but people will make mistakes when they cert anyway.

That's some really weird reasoning you have there. You can't have something underpowered without something else being overpowered and vice versa....

Originally Posted by Kezz

This will be true whatever choices are offered. Even in PS1 (which I'll reiterate: I'm not holding up as some paragon of perfect design), that "base loadout" didn't use up all your certs, even at BR25 cap; there was still variation on top of that.

Really, what variation? Choice of vehicles? Everyone with a brain or wanted to do well had the exact same loadout. In PS2 you have at least 6 different potential load outs wich all have distinct and necessary roles. Rather than really just one cookie-cutter Rexo spec and stuff like adv-medic-cloakers for morons...

Originally Posted by Kezz

Yeah, that'd be dumb, if the med app worked as well with the HA as it would with the medic armour. It'd be like putting rails on a ship with an AC bonus (that's an EVE reference): you can do it if you think you can make it work because of other factors. You're just showing you haven't really applied your imagination to the potentials.

Firstly, Eve's balance is a disaster and has been since it's creation.

Secondly, Eve avoids making cookie-cutter setups by making certain weapons/modules into steel-solid hard counters: Blasterthron vs Suckadom = Blasterthron will always unconditionnally lose because it's hardcoded in the ships stats. Has that been fixed? I don't know, but it was a big problem for over 2 years at least.

Thirdly, try picking a game that more closely resembles Planetside gameplay and customisation like the Tribes series. At tournament level: Tribes 1 everyone played light armor/spinfusor/energy pack. Tribes 2 everyone played light armor/spinfusor/energy pack. Tribes 3 (Vengeance) everyone played light armor/spinfusor/energy pack with the grappler maybe. Tribes 4 (Ascend, wich has a class system) people play Pathfinders, Raiders, Technicians etc.... See the trend?

Originally Posted by Kezz

Again, no. They do do that, but a) it's not necessary

Yeah, it is. You make this half-baked admission of the med app being the exception but so far most, if not all, the restrictions we've seen so far in PS2 make sense to anyone with a clue about balancing.

Examples:
LA not being allowed to carry an ammo pack? Makes sense, otherwise they'd be able to permanently camp roof tops, they don't need self healing anyway because they can just hide out of reach of everyone else and wait for their shield regen.

No one can use sniper rifles except for infiltrators? Good move, else LAs would camp mostly unattainable positions where they can't be countered by anything other than enemy snipers and aircraft, and they'd be OP. So OP in fact, that there'd be no reason for other classes to use that weapon.

Cloakers running around with Jackhammers?

Invisible Heavy assaults?

Maxes with repair tools?

Maxes with pistols?

If you don't apparently have a "lack of vision", give us some examples of how you would make it work.

Kezz · 2012-07-07, 10:57 AM

Here's an example of one way you could start going about designing something a bit like PS without classes. Note: it is an example for illustrative purposes only, and not directly applicable to any extant game that I'm aware of. Specifics are for example purposes only. 30s could be 10s or a minute. It's the principles that I'm illustrating.

Let's consider a system with one standard type of armour. It has 2 backpack slots for "signature" abilities. There are 4 different backpacks.

The Revival Unit: necessary to use certs from the "Emergency Resuscitation" tree.
The Shield Enhancement unit: when activated it generates an ablative shield that makes you significantly harder to kill.
The Jump Unit: when activated, you get jump jets for up to 10s.
Aux Reactor: doubles your energy regen rate.

Backpack units (except the Aux Reactor) burn energy on activation. Shield and Revive activations burn the entire suit's energy pool; JJets will burn it over 10s. The pool will regenerate from empty to full in 30s.

In this vastly simplified example, you can have 2 out of three 'signature' things, but only do one thing at a time, or you can specialise (by taking an Aux Reactor, instead of a different ability), and you'll be twice as good at your sole signature ability. Any combination is going to be powerful and worth playing. Any combination of people with different combinations is going to be powerful in different situations. Double Jump might be the least common, and the same number of hybrids facing off against an equal team of specialists should, mathematically, lose, since they have half the potential activations that the specialists do, but if they can exploit their individual versatility they can get away.

Balancing can be at the front end (how big is the shield, how far is the jump, per second) or at the back end, with energy use (exactly how much energy does each ability use? Does the shield use it progressively as it takes damage? Is the Aux Reactor increasing regen rate by more or less than 100%?). Adding other factors "under the hood" like mass or nanofactory capacity can create synergies or negative feedback or diminishing returns to make things interesting. And once you have a coherent system you can open up the hood and allow players to tinker, so perhaps they get a capacitor for their abilties, so they can both be used quickly, but then all recharge is split between them and they can't use them again til full recharge. And with higher certs in the Energy Management tree they can tune the recharge split so the JJet gets more or less of the recharge than the revive unit, adjusting their personal balance between mobility and healing. But they still can't do more than 2 "signature moves" per double-recharge period.

It's a small example. By no means exhaustive. I think it shows you can apply limitations without pigeonholing.

roguy · 2012-07-07, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Kezz

It's a small example. By no means exhaustive. I think it shows you can apply limitations without pigeonholing.

Yeah, a very small example. Wich would never work because it's a balancing nightmare since it's a system that exponentially becomes more convoluted and complicated the more you add to the game.

So instead of balancing the game by pitting 6 classes and tweaking the stats independantly so they're about even (by use, K/D, xp gain, the usual stuff).

You would need to balance 6 armor types with 15 "backpack" combinations (assuming theres 6 and you can combine 2) each, wich means 90 different "specs" to balance. Excluding weapons of course, wich would probably take it over 500 anyway. And excluding the ability to "tweak" the stats yourself.

THEN suppose the LA is OP with the Ammo + Jetpack "backpack slots", how would you go about nerfing that combo? Would you nerf the armor type and make the other LA combos underpowered or would you nerf the jetpack and ruin it for the other armor types?

It doesn't work, and any dev thinking that's a good idea would be committing career suicide.

Klockan · 2012-07-07, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kezz

Much text.

Congratulations on inventing classes! A class system doesn't have to be that restrictive. A common way to do things is to have your class use its own things with better effect while it can still use everyone else things. Penalties for using cross class equipment could be half the jumpjet height, much slower ress and heal, twice the reloadtime and worse accuracy for weapons etc. Then we would basically have the system you are advocating for.

But to me it just seems like you are angry because the build you want to play isn't compatible with the current classes. But that's the point, there are no optimal classes that are good with a large variety of situations. Every class is highly situational and in every situation you have to innovate with what you got or die.

But that's the point, jump packs feels much more special if not everyone got them, same with healing, repairing, anti vehicle and cloak. None will pick medic just so that they can heal themselves between combat since then they would gimp themselves for said combat. Thus to get healed you need a buddy. You can't just play a heavy with a medipack instead of a rocket launcher which is what people would do if you were allowed to do that.

Littleman · 2012-07-07, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Klockan

But to me it just seems like you are angry because the build you want to play isn't compatible with the current classes. But that's the point, there are no optimal classes that are good with a large variety of situations. Every class is highly situational and in every situation you have to innovate with what you got or die.

Classes, especially in a PvP "team-based" game (thinking of Team Fortress,) really are about this. It's natural that we'd want to build our own kits to ride out into battle with: we'd build them to handle the situations we plan to be in, preferably every situation conceivable.

Classes aren't about the lack of control in customizing one's own gaming experience around how one wants to play. That's not what they're being designed for, that's just the unfortunate result. Classes are about strengths and weaknesses, and encouraging at least a modicum of teamwork with the idea that different classes will be covering for each others weaknesses. Soloists will be SoL when they really need what another class offers, and will have to figure out how to make the most of what they got.

Some people will love a few classes over other classes, but at no point will they be capable of having a class prepared for nearly all situations. A severely wounded HA can't hide behind a rock and heal themselves anymore, and to me that is a huge leap in the right direction.

Kezz · 2012-07-07, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by roguy

Yeah, a very small example.

Well now, I seem to have won a couple of bets with myself.

1) Someone would say it's a small example and therefore invalid.
2) those who cavail miss the point that it's not about the armour or the jets, it's about the principle, as I said, of having something underlying that controls what people can do.

Classes also become exponentially more complicated to balance as you add them, and there will always be someone who claims class x is useless or overpowered and often they'll be right.

You would need to balance 6 armor types...

Or you could recognise that you don't need 6 armour types. That's what PS2 has. Ps1 had 4 (really 3 when you're talking about choices; did anyone seriously prefer Basic over Agile?) plus MAX.

THEN suppose the LA is OP with the Ammo + Jetpack "backpack slots", how would you go about nerfing that combo? Would you nerf the armor type and make the other LA combos underpowered or would you nerf the jetpack and ruin it for the other armor types?

You did read the bit about it not being about the specifics, and being about the principle. The principle is that energy consumption (and/or other tactical resources) control what's going on. If you have mass, affecting how far JJets get you, you maybe make the Ammo pack heavier, so it gimps the Jets for that combo. And maybe add some nano consumption for it too. I notice that you've automatically assumed there will be a separate "LA" armour type, when I included no such thing in my example. Well done on the reading comprehension and suspending your own biases.

It doesn't work, and any dev thinking that's a good idea would be committing career suicide.

There are dozens of adequately balanced classless (and mostly level-less) rulesets out there, that you're obviously unware of, from simple ones starting with 6 points and 50-odd different skills to 400 page rulebooks with 100s of points to spend.

Just because you can't conceive of how something can be done doesn't mean it's impossible.

Originally Posted by Klockan

Congratulations on inventing classes!

Yay! Another bet with myself won!

If there was a snowball's chance in hell that there would be any change, I might write up a skeleton cert tree that would show you that the core abilities of a role are far from classes, but since that would be a waste of a few hours, I'll pass. I offer a simple blocky example and you take it for the whole deal. Nice one.

A class system doesn't have to be that restrictive.

No, but people always want to have "just one thing" that's cross class. Why do you think DnD allowed such free multiclassing in v3.x? And still people wanted prestige classes that were hybrids of every possible combo. I haven't seen anything to say that in PS2 anyone can take any abilities outside the class they're currently playing. I've heard it said that there aren't even any cross-class certs that can be used in whatever class you're currently playing. Some class based systems (Rolemaster was one) let you take picks from outside your class, but the cost was heinous, and there was probably a hybrid class that meant you didn't need to. If you had enough expansions, or made your own.

But to me it just seems like you are angry because the build you want to play isn't compatible with the current classes.

I don't give a flying fandango whether "what I want to play" isn't compatible with the classes.

...there are no optimal classes...

Nor do I give a fig about "optimal". I want everyone to be able to try combinations. There's a new MMORPG out which is classless, and has effectively got what you could think of as cert trees. You can only use 2 weapons (and therefore types of active ability) at once, and only 7 active and 7 passive skills at any one time, but you can incorporate any sort of passive if it helps. And all the weapons rock, in the right situation. Not all the combinations do, but that's just fine; there are more viable ones than non-viable, and so far no one's found a cookie-cutter "one build to rule them all".

...[stuff] feels much more special if not everyone got them...

Having your own style that you've made work feels even more special yet.

None will pick medic just so that they can heal themselves between combat since then they would gimp themselves for said combat.

Apart from the fact that they've already said the medic will be able to run and gun with the rest of the posse... As it is, Medic is going to have to hang back because they'll be the only one able to heal, and they can kiss any chance to run and gun goodbye (which is the devs missing the point). And if your Medic goes down, that's "bye bye" to the squad. Or will you be gimping the squad's combat power and bringing 2 or 3 Medics?

Thus to get healed you need a buddy. You can't just play a heavy with a medipack instead of a rocket launcher which is what people would do if you were allowed to do that.

So you're saying people would gimp their combat abilities to be able to heal themselves now, given the opportunity? Which is it?

Anyway, the horse is dead. It has little hide left on it. My arm is tired and I'm going to stop flogging it. You're still wrong though.