Lets talk about the ressource system. Right now, its borderline Pay to Win

[omega four]

I don't subscribe to the notion that one must have a "significant" advantage over others to qualify as P2W. I think ANY advantage one gets over those who choose not to pay qualifies as P2W.

I think true non-P2W games only allow you to by accessories like rims for your tank or useless camo outfits and helmets.

Originally Posted by MrMak

First off. Quoted text goes ABOVE your reply. Makes it easier for everyone.

Second. Pay to win sugests tht if oyu pay you have a very significant advantage over those woh didnt and oyu will beat those who didnt most of the time if the skill gap is not to high. And with that game that is simply not the case.

[DeltaGun]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

Why have resources at all? Why not base the system completely on timers?

[omega four]

I think the resources are SOE's way of trying to incorporate grand strategy into PS2. The problem is most casual gamers really aren't interested in strategy at all.

Originally Posted by DeltaGun

Why have resources at all? Why not base the system completely on timers?

[Crator]

Originally Posted by omega four

I think the resources are SOE's way of trying to incorporate grand strategy into PS2. The problem is most casual gamers really aren't interested in strategy at all.

You make it sound like all players are casual. Or that casual players can't participate along with the other that are doing the strategic part. Or that casual players can't get interested enough to start participating in the strategic part. Strategy is the part that gets you hooked into the game hardcore btw.

[GeoGnome]

Originally Posted by Crator

You make it sound like all players are casual. Or that casual players can't participate along with the other that are doing the strategic part. Or that casual players can't get interested enough to start participating in the strategic part. Strategy is the part that gets you hooked into the game hardcore btw.

Not to mention that saying that "The problem is casual Gamers" is a convenient way to push the blame on other people. The Filthy casuals are the ones causing the problem, no real hardcore gamer would waste resources... This is what is known as "no true scotsman"

Crator is right. The overarching strategy is what makes the game worth playing, because one person's actions become greater than just "Capture point, kill people" when there are things you can do that actively contribute to the faction as a whole.

I my own resource proposal I said something about having a system by which there were resources in each base. The individual allotment was approximately the same as it is now, but with only 1 resource.

The change I intended to make in my followup, was that individual allotment should be determined by player conduct. Basically, lump grief prevention and resources into one. If someone shoots friendlies, they get a resource allotment penalty. The penalties will universally be more severe than the benefits, so one penalty will undo a lot of good. Eventually if your good Enough, you can get More than the usual resource allotment. This rewards players who take the time to play the game correctly, and punishes those who constantly TK and do other things that are detrimental to the cause. It makes sense, because your not giving unfettered access to the resource stocks to someone who is a complete idiot. People who accidentally TK will get a penalty, but it'll be something they can climb out of.

Now even this will be flawed by some people Just naturally getting more resource than another group. I have talked to numerous people who were and are subscribers. No one is bothered by the idea of loosing the resource boost. Everyone understands that loosing it means a more balanced game.

[GeoGnome]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

Even 1 resource, if some people are allowed more than others, the whole system is slighted towards the people who pay for more resources than the people who don't... unless your talking about simply boosting the Earning power. That is to say that the person who has the boost contributes to the grand amount that the army can have, but does not contribute to the amount that they can pull.

If it is about the amount of resources one person can pull: This is an unfair advantage, and means that the resource system is partially supported by real money.

The logic of that is inescapable.

[omega four]

I think casual gamers are the largest gaming demographic. Whether they're the largest gaming demographic of PS2 remains to be seen.

Yes, casual gamers can participate with serious, hardcore gamers on strategy but that's usually a coincidence more than anything else. Just because I help the Enclave, GOKU, AACE or any of the Mattherson outfits cap a base doesn't mean I was privy to their war council strategy sessions. It just means I showed up to fight (via instant action or not) were they were to earn XPs and certs.

I play games for FUN. I leave the serious strategizing for my career and making real world money.

Originally Posted by Crator

You make it sound like all players are casual. Or that casual players can't participate along with the other that are doing the strategic part. Or that casual players can't get interested enough to start participating in the strategic part. Strategy is the part that gets you hooked into the game hardcore btw.

[omega four]

While I agree that the logic you articulated is inescapable, it still doesn't stop many gamers from being unable to see it in the first place.

The fact is the easiest way for-profit companies like SOE to make money is to offer advantages to winning to those who are willing to pay for it.

Whether some are willing to admit it or not, SOE is farming most PS2 gamers in some way or another. Even those gamers who pay nothing to SOE are fulfilling SOE's master plan by being served up as "cannon fodder" to those gamers who did pay SOE for a winning advantage.

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

Even 1 resource, if some people are allowed more than others, the whole system is slighted towards the people who pay for more resources than the people who don't... unless your talking about simply boosting the Earning power. That is to say that the person who has the boost contributes to the grand amount that the army can have, but does not contribute to the amount that they can pull.

If it is about the amount of resources one person can pull: This is an unfair advantage, and means that the resource system is partially supported by real money.

The logic of that is inescapable.

[MrMak]

Seriosuly do you refuse to use the edit button and put the Quotes on top on purpouse?

[Shogun]

i think the best way to get rid of the problem of punishing the losing faction by nerfing their ability to draw maxes and vehicles, would be a total transit to a ressource based on bases instead of being personal ressources. like the ntu in ps1.

the ntu could flow through the lattice, with options to sabotage or defend the pipelines.

i can´t see a way to make the original ps2 design work since the ability to freely choose hexes to attack is gone.
i would even like to see the ant return and completely copy the ps1 system. some players may hate it, but a lot will love it, and only very few need to do the ant duty, so who hates it, is almost never forced to do it. in ps1 it was never a real problem to organise antruns. it was a welcomed challenge when needed in a huge longtime basefight, and source of a lot of epic moments. and during downtime, it was a nice and easy way to get a little free xp for the whole squad.

but if the devs really have to stick with something resembling the actual ressource concept, changing to just one ressource type is at least a first step. so we could at least use all ressources we earned. some players like to only play air/vehicle or infantry. those players can only use a third of their total ressources.
i never fly, so i don´t need air ressources and would like to be able to use them for infantry or pulling sundys.
but i would totally prefer a ntu system of some kind, that provides a whole new additional gameplay style instead of just limiting the other playstyles.

[omega four]

Are you so anal retentive that you'd actually write an off-topic post in a thread about something like this? Perhaps you should seek out medical help to determine the root cause behind this behavior.

You don't see others (including myself) worried about your continuous misspelling of words (especially given the prevalence of tools like "spellcheck"). FYI, the correct spelling is "seriously" and "purpose".

Back on topic, I don't think penalizing losing factions is the way to go for losing facilities. While this may be how it is in the real world, it makes for poor gameplay.

Originally Posted by MrMak

Seriosuly do you refuse to use the edit button and put the Quotes on top on purpouse?

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Just gonna leave this here.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...-revamp.83018/

Some would think that with the title, Game Designer, you'd understand the importance of a resource revamp and how it can and hopefully will change the design of the game.

Why is this being pushed back every other month ?

[GeoGnome]

Originally Posted by omega four

While I agree that the logic you articulated is inescapable, it still doesn't stop many gamers from being unable to see it in the first place.

The fact is the easiest way for-profit companies like SOE to make money is to offer advantages to winning to those who are willing to pay for it.

Whether some are willing to admit it or not, SOE is farming most PS2 gamers in some way or another. Even those gamers who pay nothing to SOE are fulfilling SOE's master plan by being served up as "cannon fodder" to those gamers who did pay SOE for a winning advantage.

Okay... that is great and all, but how does that invalidate anything?

SOE can make money without being bastards and sabotaging themselves, and the resource boosts, when implemented really did not matter. No one in their right mind bought their membership or their boost because it granted resources... Because again, the resource system did not matter.

For the most part it -still- doesn't matter, but the manufactured hysteria that is GU11, has brought a good point to light. And anything they would do to correct the system in place would be undermined by the continued existence of these boosts. So, this comes down to: Does SOE want to make a breathtakingly idiotic decision, or do they want to make a system that will work.

People who simply say: "Oh, they are a for profit company, so they will exploit your every dollar" really just aren't looking at the big picture. SOE isn't bloody Haliburton, they don't ignore people to make money, even when it kills people... they are a game development company, that is tasked with creating a product, that is powered by the illusion that the long term consumers, the players of their game, have some kind of power over development. It is actively working against their interest to ignore this. Especially when they are talking about something that again, no one gives a flying fornication about, and most people have said they would willingly give up, because they realize the long term ramifications.

[omega four]

Have you ever worked for a Japanese multinational corporation? I have. I know better than most about their thought processes when it comes to corporate hierarchy and decisions based on cost-benefit analyses.

SOE reports to Sony. SOE is beholden to Sony, who is in turn beholden to its shareholders. That means both companies live quarter to quarter on financial earnings reports.

Sony, and in turn SOE, are profit-driven companies that will do whatever it takes to make money. You can believe that SOE will make decisions based on what's fair and right for its gamers. But I know better.

I also know that many PS2 gamers don't realize that they're being farmed by SOE. And even if they did (like myself), they really don't care so long as they feel they're getting their money's worth.

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

Okay... that is great and all, but how does that invalidate anything?

SOE can make money without being bastards and sabotaging themselves, and the resource boosts, when implemented really did not matter. No one in their right mind bought their membership or their boost because it granted resources... Because again, the resource system did not matter.

For the most part it -still- doesn't matter, but the manufactured hysteria that is GU11, has brought a good point to light. And anything they would do to correct the system in place would be undermined by the continued existence of these boosts. So, this comes down to: Does SOE want to make a breathtakingly idiotic decision, or do they want to make a system that will work.

People who simply say: "Oh, they are a for profit company, so they will exploit your every dollar" really just aren't looking at the big picture. SOE isn't bloody Haliburton, they don't ignore people to make money, even when it kills people... they are a game development company, that is tasked with creating a product, that is powered by the illusion that the long term consumers, the players of their game, have some kind of power over development. It is actively working against their interest to ignore this. Especially when they are talking about something that again, no one gives a flying fornication about, and most people have said they would willingly give up, because they realize the long term ramifications.

[GlueHead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcqQC02YbY