"Point popups"

[Graywolves]

As far as psychological methods go, it's a gimick that loses its flair quickly. As I said.


To some players it is like having a back seat driver yell and get excited every time you do something awesome. Going "WOAH YOU KILLED THAT GUY!" and after about an hour you just want to strangle him to death.

To some it works very well.


In WoW you have a big golden light come out of you when you level, it's like that.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=psychology+gaming

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

Don't you think it's wrong to rely on subliminally message the player into liking the game with mind numbing numbers. You did say that that's not all there is to it, so I was wrong to say that's the entire basis of your argument. However, it certainly is the main focal point of your argument. You're making the importance of pop up exp seem more important than it really is. It's not like if pop up exp isn't in the game then it's going to be colossal disaster that no one will play. Besides that's not what I'm asking, I'm merely asking for an option to disable it if you so choose.

It's not subliminal, subliminal manipulation is entirely different and in fact there's research that shows subliminal messaging doesn't actually work. Subliminal messaging is the act of hiding hidden messages in subject matter, either through single frame flashing or linguistic manipulation in order to influence a person into thinking about something without having realised they were exposed to it with the overall goal of getting someone to do something without knowing someone had tried to get them to do something. It doesn't work though and despite the uproar years back when it was originally made illegal, it's fairly debunked now.

On the corrected question of, do I think manipulating people into enjoying themselves through the use of interesting psychological effects is ethical? Yes I do.

There are 3 types of gamer(generalising), those of us that play for cathartic release, we want to enjoy ourselves and relax, it's a laugh. Those of us that play for ego, to be a "winner", to feel accomplishment, achievement, beating others and being above them. And then there are those that cross both (the largest group).

I think it's perfectly ethical to use these mental effects in this form, it is essentially "fine tuning" to take a good game and make it really make the players feel good about themselves and get the effects that motivate them to play games in the first place. It's imperceptible, it's something people don't think about, but it's a driving force as to why they play and continue playing.

I'm not saying that a little popup is the be all and end all, I never have. It is however a single part of a large system of player influences that are in games, it's going to stick around, and it should, for as long as it gives players that cathartic release and sense of achieving something (however small).

And we'll continue seeing it, in all games, right up until someone implements something that influences the player in an even stronger way.

Now, if it were actually subliminal messaging, and it worked, then it would be unethical. It is not however trying to get the player to do anything, it is simply trying to make the player feel good about having just shot someone. Positive reinforcement+cathartic release+sense of achievement.

EDIT: Now there IS a counter argument to be had here. One could argue that it positively reinforces killing, therefore it teaches players to be killwhores. From that angle I'll agree that there's possible gameplay effects that should be explored. Personally wish I had the means to parse statistics on the kind of level that these game companies do behind the scenes, seeing the difference in player behaviour with and without a mechanism like this would be very interesting.

[Dir]

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

If the only thing this game has to keep players hooked is little numbers periodically popping up, then the game is screwed. There's more to keeping players hooked than the strange psychological theories you have.


Even if that were the case, maybe I don't want to be subconsciously hypnotized into playing the game for hours by little numbers contentiously popping up in my screen. In fact, I do play Battlefield and those numbers actually piss me off and make me want to play the game LESS.


Also, you could already recognize your kill confirmation in PS1, it was listed in the killspam box. You could easily tell in your peripheral vision when you got a kill because you'd see an icon separated by a few lines of text explaining that you got the kill and how much it was worth. Besides, it's like I'm going to shoot at a guy then stutter around for a few seconds in confusion because I didn't know if I got the kill or not.

I have to agree I had a “cathartic release” a couple of minutes ago in the WC and don't need to see it on my monitor. Maybe the kiddies that require a “cathartic release” can drag and drop it onto their second monitor long as I'm not FORCED to view it. It's about time these game devs start realizing we have dual video cards in our machines with multiple ports on each and at least start to make use of our second monitors for their ui toys. Far as that goes with all these apps becoming available with developer kits can't someone just as easily connect to the stat server and have a cool image of their characters on a web-page on their second monitor with all their stats being updated dynamically? Then people can write their own apps and do as they please maybe even have it ghosted in as an overlay or stuck on their iphone.

Let kids be kids we can't make them grow up any faster than they already are but I'm turning 40 this year and all I want to see on the screen are uniforms, if it's purple shoot it, if it's blue shoot it! Seeing 500 friendly name tags with floating arrows pointing down at their heads isn't something I'm looking forward to and would appreciate some customization options. A completely configurable ui to limit name tag opacity, fade, cull distance, distance from cross hair...totally cleans up the screen and makes for a more immersive environment where you have to think before you shoot. Besides I think the devs will give us what we want unless they are merciless prima donnas like Lucas trying to force Jar Jar down our throats.....Han shot first!!!

Dir

[Death2All]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

It's not subliminal, subliminal manipulation is entirely different and in fact there's research that shows subliminal messaging doesn't actually work. Subliminal messaging is the act of hiding hidden messages in subject matter, either through single frame flashing or linguistic manipulation in order to influence a person into thinking about something without having realised they were exposed to it with the overall goal of getting someone to do something without knowing someone had tried to get them to do something. It doesn't work though and despite the uproar years back when it was originally made illegal, it's fairly debunked now.

It's subliminal in the sense that it's a constant thing popping up in your face that you're not supposed to notice after awhile.

Originally Posted by Skitrel

On the corrected question of, do I think manipulating people into enjoying themselves through the use of interesting psychological effects is ethical? Yes I do.

There are 3 types of gamer(generalising), those of us that play for cathartic release, we want to enjoy ourselves and relax, it's a laugh. Those of us that play for ego, to be a "winner", to feel accomplishment, achievement, beating others and being above them. And then there are those that cross both (the largest group).

I think it's perfectly ethical to use these mental effects in this form, it is essentially "fine tuning" to take a good game and make it really make the players feel good about themselves and get the effects that motivate them to play games in the first place. It's imperceptible, it's something people don't think about, but it's a driving force as to why they play and continue playing.

I have to disagree with that. I think it's wrong to purposely exploit a supposed psychological reinforcement method to trick players into liking the game (which doesn't work anyways). The player should able to distinguish by themselves whether or not they like or are addicted to the game. Purposely adding something to keep the player addicted is unethical from my perspective. I know from a business perspective, SOE wants to make a killing and milk as much money from us as possible, but I think purposely adding a trick to keep someone addicted is wrong.

It's almost on par with adding an addictive substance to a prescription to keep the patient buying it, whether or not it's good for them.

Originally Posted by Skitrel

I'm not saying that a little popup is the be all and end all, I never have. It is however a single part of a large system of player influences that are in games, it's going to stick around, and it should, for as long as it gives players that cathartic release and sense of achieving something (however small).

If it's not the end all be all, then why are you so adamant on keeping it's inclusion in the game? If it's not that important then why do we have to keep it in the game? You don't need to put mustard on your hotdog if you don't like it, but you have to.

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Now there IS a counter argument to be had here. One could argue that it positively reinforces killing, therefore it teaches players to be killwhores. From that angle I'll agree that there's possible gameplay effects that should be explored. Personally wish I had the means to parse statistics on the kind of level that these game companies do behind the scenes, seeing the difference in player behaviour with and without a mechanism like this would be very interesting.

I think this argument pertains more towards the inclusion of killstreaks. A play test with or without point exp pop ups would be very interesting, I'm willing to bet gameplay won't change very much without the inclusion of exp popping up, but it'd be interesting to see.

[Skitrel]

I have to disagree with that. I think it's wrong to purposely exploit a supposed psychological reinforcement method to trick players into liking the game (which doesn't work anyways). The player should able to distinguish by themselves whether or not they like or are addicted to the game. Purposely adding something to keep the player addicted is unethical from my perspective. I know from a business perspective, SOE wants to make a killing and milk as much money from us as possible, but I think purposely adding a trick to keep someone addicted is wrong.

Define why. What you're saying here is that the intent is the problem, not the mechanic. Originally something like this made it into games the first time because a dev thought it was cool, he had no idea the psychological happenings behind it. What you're saying here is that, because we now understand the psychological happenings it shouldn't be allowed.

Well, in that case, almost every mechanic in games shouldn't be allowed, because they're all purposely chosen to stir an emotional reaction of happiness, enjoyment, catharsis and so on. The entire purpose of games is to mentally stimulate in various ways, as is almost every form of entertainment.

And yes, I'm aware this is a slippery slope argument. It is however, relevant.

[Figment]

Skitrel, that's scaremongering bull.

You can and should design a game to create particular player interactions, emotions, etc.

To not do something because of "A", can be a good reason FOR THAT particular item and does not necessarily have repercursions for anything else.

[Death2All]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Define why. What you're saying here is that the intent is the problem, not the mechanic. Originally something like this made it into games the first time because a dev thought it was cool, he had no idea the psychological happenings behind it. What you're saying here is that, because we now understand the psychological happenings it shouldn't be allowed.

I would first of all have to ask for proof that it was originally added because a dev thought it was cool. How do you know this? I'm not trying to be snippity about this, we just don't know if that was the original intent or not.

How do we know that it's not an applied theory based off of some other form of psychological positive reinforcement?

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Well, in that case, almost every mechanic in games shouldn't be allowed, because they're all purposely chosen to stir an emotional reaction of happiness, enjoyment, catharsis and so on. The entire purpose of games is to mentally stimulate in various ways, as is almost every form of entertainment.

You could argue that, but most elements added in games that give players that reactionary emotion of happiness, enjoyment etc. are things that you're actively paying attention to/doing.

People enjoy killstreaks because they're an active thing they can see an keep track of. People enjoy customizing their characters because it's something they're actively doing an in control of, versus a constant pop of information that happens as a direct result of them doing something, whether or not they want to see it or not.



(Also I'm not advocating killstreaks; They are the Devil )

[NEWSKIS]

At the very least it should have a toggle for it.

I'd rather have it like PS1 where its in a chat box that you can scroll back through. Especially for taking screenshots of rediculous kill streaks This way you can see how much exp any given kill gave you and also keeps it less obtrusive.

[DayOne]

How the fuck has a discussion about the xp pop up that was solved pages ago (TOGGLE) turned into a debate about psychology?

I refuse to read it because it will will reveal little and I'm inherently lazy.

Yes games are designed to evoke an emotional response, same way books and music do. IT'S HOW THEY SELL.

Deal with it.


I'd give a longer response but I'm still in shock how something so fucking meaningless gets you all hyped up about "tricking" people into liking a game. WTF?

[Death2All]

Originally Posted by DayOne

How the fuck has a discussion about the xp pop up that was solved pages ago (TOGGLE) turned into a debate about psychology?

I refuse to read it because it will will reveal little and I'm inherently lazy.

Yes games are designed to evoke an emotional response, same way books and music do. IT'S HOW THEY SELL.

Deal with it.


I'd give a longer response but I'm still in shock how something so fucking meaningless gets you all hyped up about "tricking" people into liking a game. WTF?

Now you know how I feel

[Mastachief]

*angry response"

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by Mastachief

*angry response"

*angry tangental response to your response*

*intentional logical fallacies*

*troll face/lol cat*




Btw I fully respect and understand why people might not want this xp scrolling business - even if I like it. Look at the range of interface mods for WOW, different people with different needs.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Blah blah.. TLDR.

Cathartic blah blah.

I want to see bodies hit the floor and tanks explode. That shit's cathartic.

Why do i need yellow popups too? Because 1 researcher/consultant said that it works on 90% of the population? Well guess what? Everyone thinks they're in the other 10%.

No popups. Get satisfaction in other ways.

[sylphaen]

Please, if an argument is sterile, can you guys please do it in private ? The topic of this thread was not psychology.

It's one thing to post constructively, it's something else to waste others' time bickering with walls of text about an off-topic subject. By now, you should realize that none of you will convince the other party so do a service to other forum members and drop it.

It's hard enough to keep with all the stuff being posted nowadays.