Some Thoughts on MBT's from a Veteran Tanker

[NoDachi]

Originally Posted by Gugabalog

What a troll...

Because the Magrider is forced to forward face to engage either A) it is rationalized by increased firepower attributes or B) it is to encourage tankers to keep the forward armor always facing the target as if it wasn't already obvious. If the answer is B then there should have been extra design emphasis on the forward armor and thus it should either A) receive heavier armor if the forward armor is not currently sufficient or B) already have that heavy forward armor.

Between that and how it's ability to strafe give's it the tactical initiative it should be a monstrous tank.

With regards to that media stream, the tank appeared sluggish and pathetic suggesting it is not currently in working order and the discussion was about how to make it so.

But all tanks in PS2 are forced to keep their fronts towards the enemy, otherwise they die in a couple hits.

The magrider can pivot quicker than most tanks can move their turrets.

[Inq]

Azren over in the idea thread already made this photoshop:



Although he goes on to talk about turrets etc, even as a fixed gun this is positioned 100x better.

[NoDachi]

Originally Posted by Inq

Azren over in the idea thread already made this photoshop:



Although he goes on to talk about turrets etc, even as a fixed gun this is positioned 100x better.

The thing is, if that did rotate, it would look ridiculous in that design.

But it would be a far superior hull position.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by Gugabalog

What a troll...

Because the Magrider is forced to forward face to engage either A) it is rationalized by increased firepower attributes or B) it is to encourage tankers to keep the forward armor always facing the target as if it wasn't already obvious. If the answer is B then there should have been extra design emphasis on the forward armor and thus it should either A) receive heavier armor if the forward armor is not currently sufficient or B) already have that heavy forward armor.

Between that and how it's ability to strafe give's it the tactical initiative it should be a monstrous tank.

With regards to that media stream, the tank appeared sluggish and pathetic suggesting it is not currently in working order and the discussion was about how to make it so.

Forward armor is already stronger then rear or side armor. The Magrider is already at an advantage because it's main cannon forces it to face it's primary target.

It's ability to strafe may or may not need looking into, that was a very short engagement between two tanks with one of them seriously out classed by the other. In other words I didn't see enough to convince me that that tank was actively attempting to do more then just ADAD to make himself a slightly harder target to hit. Show me a video of a Magrider cruising sideways compared to one traveling strait and THEN we would have hard data to base speculation on. Until then you have nothing to base any kind of suggested balance tweaks on other then personal opinion.

I'd like to point out that that Magrider was out numbered in that fight and only started showing signs of serious damage after it started taking hits from the side. The tank died an instant before Higby did in that engagement.

[NoDachi]

Not to mention you was watching an alpha build where all the weapon and vehicle stats were probably placeholders.

[AzureWatcher]

There might be decent footage in the E3 streams of a Vanguard/Prowler versus a Magrider.

Although it's probably already outdated by now because of more recent balancing. I'll dig through TB's channel and see if I can find anything.

[Noctis]

Remember that Mag has More armor then a prowler.

[Gugabalog]

Originally Posted by Noctis

Remember that Mag has More armor then a prowler.

If that is the case it should be fine.

Forward armor is already stronger then rear or side armor. The Magrider is already at an advantage because it's main cannon forces it to face it's primary target.

It's ability to strafe may or may not need looking into, that was a very short engagement between two tanks with one of them seriously out classed by the other. In other words I didn't see enough to convince me that that tank was actively attempting to do more then just ADAD to make himself a slightly harder target to hit. Show me a video of a Magrider cruising sideways compared to one traveling strait and THEN we would have hard data to base speculation on. Until then you have nothing to base any kind of suggested balance tweaks on other then personal opinion.

I'd like to point out that that Magrider was out numbered in that fight and only started showing signs of serious damage after it started taking hits from the side. The tank died an instant before Higby did in that engagement.

Armor facing has been a given throughout this discussion. And as I said, from a design perspective if a tank is forced to have any side facing a threat that side should have the heaviest armor. This adds extra emphasis to the already emphasized forward armor.

Perhaps armor certs will address this by allowing people to redistribute/add armor to the front/sides/rear?

[LordSlack]

I guess what balances the stationary gun out is IF the Mag moved the same speed in all directions. If strafing or driving in reverse moves at the same speed as driving forward, I would not complain about the fixed gun whatsoever because you could still to drivebys, you'll just be gangsta leaning to the side. This would also allow you to retreat in reverse with gun pointed back. If strafing and reverse speeds are slower, then I can see the Mag at a disadvantage because you will almost never be driving forward while firing in combat.

[Grognard]

Originally Posted by Tactical Pony

I get it

You sure think you do...

Originally Posted by Tactical Pony

you, playing vanu, want a magrider with a rotating turret, that moves back faster than everything moves forward, that strafes, that goes over water, that has multiple damage points so that one needs precision targeting to fight against it effectively, and that transforms into megatron.

Negative, and dont put words in my mouth, I can state "what I want" when I have the inclination to do so. Your assumptions dont make anything true. I do not want a rotating turret as a matter of fact, and, in fact, in another post after your quoted one, I even said Vanu has to accept new tactics given the technology we "married into"... So, you are wrong.

Originally Posted by Tactical Pony

I, playing TR, want to replace our MBT with our Invader

but for the sake of balance, we cant always get what we want.

Yes, yes, we all know we dont get everything we want...

Originally Posted by Tactical Pony

Now, as for the potential problem with the magrider, if it is determined in the beta that there is substance to your claims outside of the test tube environment that is your mind, a more legitimate solution can be worked out at the time.

There is no reason for you to come off as an ass. I have an opinion, but you are being a first class prick...

[Salad Snake]

Originally Posted by NoDachi

What if the magrider's gun had the flattest projectile, fastest projectile speed, fastest RoF and still better damage than the prowler?

The way I've been paying attention to all the information we've got so far is that,

Vanguard - Alpha damage
Prowler - Burst damage
Magrider - DPM.

It'll probably end up handling like the JT out of WoT, but with enhanced maneuverability. See how it handles in game first before writing off the fixed gun.

EDIT: My only real concern right now is that it lacks the ability to go hull down. The gun is at the bottom of the tank and it hovers giving it the tallest profile.

Originally Posted by Inq

Correct, thats one of the point's I was getting at. From a lore perspective even with new technology the engineers on vanu would not forget basic principles of tank design. Such as mounting the main gun at mid/high level on the hull/turret to allow the rest of the hull to remain behind cover.

Whoever made the design of the Magrider made it from an artistic stand point certainly not a combat effectiveness one. The design looks 'cool' but it does not fulfil its role correctly. The design would make more sense if the Magrider could fly not hover.

You forget how arrogant the Vanu are, and disdainful of any sort of "old knowledge".


Anyway, one thing about the Nekomata that will probably apply to the Mag is that the hover strafe meant nothing at close range where the flight time was too short to dodge shots, but gave a big advantage at middle range. So that might be it's strength. (It also gave it an even larger dodge bonus at long range, but it also was tough to hit with due to it's "slipperiness")

[Gugabalog]

@Grognard just report Pony's posts for rudeness.

[Grognard]

Originally Posted by Gugabalog

@Grognard just report Pony's posts for rudeness.

I hate doing that, except in the most extreme cases. Although he misinterpreted things like number 2... as "go reverse faster than other tanks go forward", he is entitled to his opinion... I just wish he would not take it so personal, and begrudge me for mine. For him to go off like that there is something else going on in his head, nothing I said should cause that direct of a personal attack. Im a pretty mild fellow on these boards, and try to be reasonable. So, maybe hes just having a bad day...

I refuse to insult people intelligence and over-explain... but just for shitsngiggles, I meant, of course, relative higher speed reverse...

[IMMentat]

I believe the fixed-forward main gun of the Magrider is something of a tradeoff that you get for things the other MBT's don't have: the ability to strafe and traverse over water.

Downsides being that strafe (acceleration/top speed or both) may well be to slow top be of practical use and there's little/no overland water currently known.

I hope the magrider will have a better than average rate of turn and/or a multi-directional strafe acceleration (maybe 50% top speed acchievable when moving to the side or backwards) to make up for the lack of turret.
It is the best way think of for it to maintain some flexibility between attack (face the enemy), and all out retreat (point your weakest side to the enemy while removing any driver capability to counter-attack).

apologies for skippiong form page 2 to page6 but i have al;ready seem many of the arguments posted.

[fvdham]

I hear the Magrider can slide in PS2.

That is, like a spacecraft, it can move in one direction, turn,
but keep moving in the original direction and fire in the new direction.

Also, in PS1, the Magrider was a nightmare to fight against,
because of it sniper cannon, it never misses.