PS2 Base Design - Page 6

Figment · 2012-12-17, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Love it.

Especially love the SoI jammer, since every outpost seems to have those big ass antenna but only a few use them to mark the position of the Control Console.

And they can have various radii, obviously.

The only thing I don't understand is Shield Generator C, since it only covers a small entryway...
...Kind of a waste of a shield generator if you ask me.

It is a shortcut really, forces normal ground troops to move through Building B and Light Assaults or infils to open up that route to medics, heavy assaults, engineers, etc. I didn't want to just put another stair or tunnel there and felt yet another vehicle entry point might one too many options.

There should be a rather good AMS spot out there for north CY control (out of direct sight of the keep and wedged in between two generators).

But as said before, it's also a showcase. In this case, one spot where one could look at closing and opening alternate access routes. A nice job for infils.

Easy, give them a suit option that allows them to carry more anti-personal explosives!

I'd prefer plain ol' PS1 mines and boomers.

Smart cloakers should be using their stealth to disrupt the enemies ability to move effectively, and what better bait to send them to the spawn countdown then an overloaded generator?

Obviously. Hence the three gens, SCU, SOI control and CC.

However, a Light Assault can do that too. I'm more thinking of ways to make the hacking abilities interesting to cert into. I was pondering on a timed overload of a generator, but that might be a tad too powerful, even if it does take longer to complete (could use a timed overload to overload several gens at once).

Another thing they might look at eventually - and which is something I'm afraid of they will - is to add virals. The old radar viral was IMO too powerful, what with blotting out everything. There's only one thing more powerful than that (and more frustrating), which would be a chat communications disruption. But that'd only affect non-external voice players.

Clearly the open door and term thing or even turret thing isn't really something to cert into anymore, since every basic infil can do that for some reason (why doesn't one have to cert into it?). If we had NTU we could have the drain back. But the viral shouldn't last as long as it used to and shouldn't be unrestricted, as it used to be (very annoying). It could however open up behind the lines work again though.

Resource production is another thing that could be affected if there's some sort of generator to hold.

If there would be searchlights or as someone else said, alarms that can be triggered, then those could be targets for infils as well. Not the most high profile ones obviously. But triggering an alarm or disabling one could be a nice decoy and disabling lights could create a black out.

The problem with the viral concept that in every zerg, there'll be trillions of people with it, so you'd eventually never fight a fight without virals because people would just upload them to speed things up and make it easier (see PS1, very annoying). Any virals should be very, very temporarily and clear to people trying to do something that there's actually a viral active. The old one didn't take much skill to use tbh, took way more skill to disable virals, since you could hardly reach it.

IFF shields/doors (opening routes) and vehicle jacking/deconstruction, as well as taking over terminals (which IMO should be temporarily, not permanently to avoid abuse) would be the easiest to balance.

Another thing could be that the hacking of a CC would be more... subtle, masked if you will. So it would only flash once in a while, rather than constantly, making it more likely to hack it right under their noses. The whole "point neutral" first thing would have to go, it'd be way too obvious, unless the second bit would go very fast. Of course, that would require a REK style hack, not an area influence thing.

Lastly, spotting and marking targets for support aircraft, like the Liberator gunship, with a Laze Pointer device could be interesting. Though the Lib should first be turned into a high alt or extremely low hit and run aircraft, rather than a "I'll just linger here to provide overwatch and farm" unit. >.>

But really, that's more a topic of its own.

Whiteagle · 2012-12-17, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

It is a shortcut really, forces normal ground troops to move through Building B and Light Assaults or infils to open up that route to medics, heavy assaults, engineers, etc. I didn't want to just put another stair or tunnel there and felt yet another vehicle entry point might one too many options.

There should be a rather good AMS spot out there for north CY control (out of direct sight of the keep and wedged in between two generators).

But as said before, it's also a showcase. In this case, one spot where one could look at closing and opening alternate access routes. A nice job for infils.

That's the problem though, you are using a single shield generator as a man door...

Now if it also shielded, say, where that eastern stretch of wall next to the main building currently is, then it would make a lot more sense.

Originally Posted by Figment

I'd prefer plain ol' PS1 mines and boomers.

Well my thinking here would probably require a revamping of how you carry explosive equipment, but the idea would be that Infiltrators would have suit options that would allow them to carry AP mines and C4 at the same time or a much larger amount of ether explosive.

A few of the other classes could get something like this as well, where an Engineer's "Utility Pouch" suit would allow him to carry all three types of deployed explosive at once.

Originally Posted by Figment

Obviously. Hence the three gens, SCU, SOI control and CC.

However, a Light Assault can do that too. I'm more thinking of ways to make the hacking abilities interesting to cert into. I was pondering on a timed overload of a generator, but that might be a tad too powerful, even if it does take longer to complete (could use a timed overload to overload several gens at once).

Actually, there is an idea...

A Certification that replaces that rather useless Radar Dartgun with a timed "Hackbox" that could be attached to hackables and other interactive objectives, allowing you to give the impression that there is an Infiltrator there when you're on the other side of the base.

Further ranks could increase the amount of time you can set the delay for, and it could have a possible additional function of not allowing an enemy to interact with the object it's attached to until they "remove" it.

Originally Posted by Figment

Another thing they might look at eventually - and which is something I'm afraid of they will - is to add virals. The old radar viral was IMO too powerful, what with blotting out everything. There's only one thing more powerful than that (and more frustrating), which would be a chat communications disruption. But that'd only affect non-external voice players.

Clearly the open door and term thing or even turret thing isn't really something to cert into anymore, since every basic infil can do that for some reason (why doesn't one have to cert into it?). If we had NTU we could have the drain back. But the viral shouldn't last as long as it used to and shouldn't be unrestricted, as it used to be (very annoying). It could however open up behind the lines work again though.

Well certing into Hacking supposedly make the hack timer faster, but yeah it is kind of underwhelming.

I don't know how virals would work...
...I mean, unless you plan for the SoI antenna to also provide radar coverage which an Infiltrator could reduce or otherwise screw with, I don't know how much of the game they'd really fit into...

I just had the idea for Infiltrators to be able to infect Vehicles with various status effects, but I don't know how effective of an option that'd be for anti-Vehicle combat or what it's counter would be...

Originally Posted by Figment

Resource production is another thing that could be affected if there's some sort of generator to hold.

Eh... I'm not seeing this, not with anything like the current resource system anyways...

Originally Posted by Figment

If there would be searchlights or as someone else said, alarms that can be triggered, then those could be targets for infils as well. Not the most high profile ones obviously. But triggering an alarm or disabling one could be a nice decoy and disabling lights could create a black out.

This might work, but it would require bases to be "wired" with security and lighting systems...

Right now the lights just... are, and I've never found it got TOO dark to notice movement...

Originally Posted by Figment

The problem with the viral concept that in every zerg, there'll be trillions of people with it, so you'd eventually never fight a fight without virals because people would just upload them to speed things up and make it easier (see PS1, very annoying). Any virals should be very, very temporarily and clear to people trying to do something that there's actually a viral active. The old one didn't take much skill to use tbh, took way more skill to disable virals, since you could hardly reach it.

Yeah, like I said before I don't know of many ways they could actually be implemented in the current game...

...There just isn't any infrastructure to sabotage outside of isolated turrets and terminals, and flipping those over to your factions control is often more useful then anything else...

Originally Posted by Figment

IFF shields/doors (opening routes) and vehicle jacking/deconstruction, as well as taking over terminals (which IMO should be temporarily, not permanently to avoid abuse) would be the easiest to balance.

Well I don't know about outright deconstruction (that sounds more like it make a great high-end Anti-Vehicle mine), it would be cool if Infiltrators could "pull" enemies out of their Vehicles, possibly with the certification leading up to jacking the Vehicle entirely.

As for the permanence of terminal hacks... well, that's kind of the only way they're really useful right now.

A defender has to ether destroy the terminal and repair it as an Engineer or grab an Infiltrator to re-hack it, busying what would otherwise be another stream of bullets to walk through and denying them that asset in the meantime.

I will admit that on a successful defense they should flip back over automatically, but yeah, one of the only useful means of sabotage Infiltrators have right now is locking terminals and turrets with hacks.

Originally Posted by Figment

Another thing could be that the hacking of a CC would be more... subtle, masked if you will. So it would only flash once in a while, rather than constantly, making it more likely to hack it right under their noses. The whole "point neutral" first thing would have to go, it'd be way too obvious, unless the second bit would go very fast. Of course, that would require a REK style hack, not an area influence thing.

...Yeah, that probably isn't going to work.
For one, most people just scramble around the map cluelessly to begin with.
I've seen two push leaders get the Zerg stranded at Biolabs because they didn't have the sense to check the fucking map to see when they were in danger of getting flanked, and that was just TODAY.

The current capture set up is too subtle as it is, this would just allow a single Infiltrator to back-capture everything.

Originally Posted by Figment

Lastly, spotting and marking targets for support aircraft, like the Liberator gunship, with a Laze Pointer device could be interesting. Though the Lib should first be turned into a high alt or extremely low hit and run aircraft, rather than a "I'll just linger here to provide overwatch and farm" unit. >.>

Well, I think the Liberator is in a good enough place as it is, its more that the Anti-air game sucked soo bad that no one knows how to use it.

Now being able to paint a target sounds like a good idea, but all units can Spot already and some sort of "specialized" weapon targeting would be very hard to get just right.

Still you are right, this is only tangentially related to Base Design...

Figment · 2012-12-22, 11:47 AM

Concept for a hilltop outpost design without solid spawns, but using an AMS inside a covered position instead.

In this case, it's a strategic node between roads, primarily aimed at controlling the roads. Could be possible to add a tunnel to the east fortification and use some walkway (doubling as roofing) to cover the approach to the western side of the fortified passage. That would make the infantry slightly less vulnerable to Liberators. In fact, covering a large section of the central square with parapet/roofed catwalks could provide quite a bit of additional defensive advantages.

Note that the roads should really, really choke any heavy armour trying to get through. Since these are bunkers with steep cliffs, walls aren't as needed.

Of course this one wouldn't control a hex, it'd simply be a strategic location to control the nearby roads with infantry. What it does need, is enough shelter to move around and provide time to fire. It must be noted that all buildings are defense based and as such provide a different type of gameplay than the regular square buildings as the buildings should provide an edge over vehicles.

Whiteagle · 2012-12-22, 02:15 PM

Great design man!

You can't use the counter argument on turtling against this, since the benifit provided is purely tactical and otherwise has no effect on the overall Meta-game.

THIS is what that damn Crown should be, a defensive hardpoint from which offensive pressure can be applied, instead of an XP farm!

Figment · 2013-01-03, 11:36 AM

Here's another quick case study.

Very quick, not entirely happy with it yet.

Current situation for Palos Solar Array:

Palos Solar Array with some fortification revisions:

Was pondering on using the rock outcrop to the right side of this image as a tunneled gate for infantry as well with two bunkers built into the rocks.

It would be possible to add some more stuff further out like with the previous case study (tank traps etc). I'm not sure if it's really needed. What I did notice about this base is that the west side of it (right side here) is hardly used due to the current proximity to the border of the map. This may change in the future if the border changes.

PS: plugged the PS2 forum thread on reddit: http://redd.it/15vvlv

Figment · 2013-01-06, 07:17 AM

Floor plan for the tower keep as per the Palos Solar Array example.

Hmr85 · 2013-01-06, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Floor plan for the tower keep as per the Palos Solar Array example.

I love the layout of the tower design here but I feel like if your going to put the SCU back in the towers it should of went 3rd or 4th floor. The 2nd floor is just way to close to the bulk majority of the fighting. The assaulting force will spend their time going after that instead of trying to take the CC on 3rd floor. Not to mention that way you can spread out the fighting some.It will also give the attackers the option to gal drop on top and drop the D at the tower if they are not watching all their exits from above.

Idk, just a thought.

Figment · 2013-01-06, 08:01 AM

The idea behind the SCU placement near the spawns, is to have the same effect as killing the spawntubes in PS1: you would have to have real control over the spawns in order to stop defenders from spawning, but it wouldn't involve as much camping.

Speaking of that door and stairs leading to the SCU, to save space and polygons, there could be a small elevator design too, as long as the exit is level, so you can see what you'd exit into and clear it first.

If you place it on the third or fourth floor, you get the same effect as you had in PS2's tech test: it'd end the fight extra quick as defenders wouldn't have a chance to stop it from blowing.

Btw, as per the info in the Palos Solar Array image, since it is actually defendable as a whole, I wouldn't mind a single wave capture point here (short capture time). The CC would be the most likely target then and would be very viable through a Gal Drop attack thanks to the choke point designs nearby.

Light Assaults (even if they get in) would have a harder time. Infiltrators could have a go at it as well.

I'm also pondering a two-step CC capture, where one CC would be in the top-most room (with the two stairs to the roof).

Alternatively, I'd like there to be a SOI spire on top with controls either outside or in that room. This way, you could call for reinforcements by drop by taking and holding that particular level of the base.

But yes, the keep is designed with Gal Drops as a very important strategy in mind. In fact, the entire SOI generator would be there to make both gal drops, direct ground assaults and therefore and perimeter defenses more important.

Paperboy · 2013-01-06, 09:28 AM

Some bases are just way too large and have way too many polygons, we don't need gargantuan bases with open holes, instead of taking what was good from planetside and scale it up slightly and adding a bit more details they decided to go godzilla on this game.

Figment · 2013-01-06, 09:45 AM

Oh btw, one thing to note about that tower, refinements would include external shape alterations of the exterior wall in particular. It's currently a block, but with proper extentions outwards, several corners to hide in and behind can be created both inside and outside.

I should probably also point out better which internal walls would be ballustrades and which solid walls.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-01-06, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Alright so I made a case study of Aurora Materials Lab, which is a base that changes hands constantly right now because every time you walk in, you already won. Currently all you need to do is get an AMS to the central CY, a tank on the south spawn exit and you win.

I've tried to give a brief impression of the situation as is below.

Then I've made some modifications (probably a few more than absolutely necessary). However, I'd say it's still pretty easy to enter, but would provide an organised assault with some challenges when defended.

Defense should be easier then now, but they'll still have to be very flexible and active. Infantry is now very important in securing the base, while vehicles are important in moving up to the base.

I've also tried to ensure there's plenty of infiltrator objectives, from gate securing to SOI destruction to SCU destruction and CC hacking.

Also note the SOI generator (in CY here, could be located on top of a building too).

Could add some elevators at wall walk ends next to buildings so people can get to the roof more easily when walking along the outpost wall.

Thoughts?

I want to play in this new and improved base.

Figment · 2013-01-06, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I want to play in this new and improved base.

Anything in particular you like about it? Or more the entire package? Any thoughts on the proposed soi generator?

RykerStruvian · 2013-01-06, 11:43 PM

Figment, everything you're showing here is absolutely awesome. I especially love the inclusion of fortified pillboxes...Its just absolutely mindblowing that for being a hundred+ year war, the absolute absence of such primitive fortifications don't exist in any format in the current game. These designs just look like a ton of fun.

Archonzero · 2013-01-07, 08:45 AM

Figment I love your ideas man. They are great outpost redesigns. I had a braindump on major base design an took an approach, while considering the previous title an twitch FPS/Esports concepts for modern shooters. An imo large numbers of vehicles shouldn't have a major effect on taking a base, taking a base should be purely about the infantry (just like real life CQC/urban combat). Vehicles should have an affect on securing footholds up to the base an lock down the outer defenses from exterior counter assaults, maybe sticking their nose into the inner court (at a significant risk.. it should be an infantry playground an urban combat is a deathtrap for vehicular combat)

Using the variety of building designs currently available should fill out the inner facility layout of rooms, open an closed hallways, interior ramparts, with capture points of various types. A spawn room that has access routes underground as well as mainfloor/upper floor access/exit points. This way the spawn room isn't a roach motel, still allows a defense force plenty of fighting chance.

Taking large an major facilities could protect infantry from the majority of vehicle slaughter (an most of the airborne bombardment) as well, IT would promote the Esport twitch arena style combat that Higby wanted, by making the interior layout "almost" untouchable by massive air an ground vehicle bombardment, until the shielded gatehouses or shielded air domes are disabled.

So I played around with the idea of biolab biodomes (being the only real base design that offers any real infantry vs infantry refuge. An scratched out a basic design idea with simple but easy to understand layout/improvement?

First off

(A) Gatehouse Towers

each tower has 2 AV guns, there are 2, 3 or 4 gatehouses depending on the base design/location.
Accessibility
- jump lift access up an down (just like current tower designs)
- outside, from along the walls, jump troops, galaxy deployed, spawn beacon, hot drop.
- inside, access points at the ground level from the inside of the base (just like current designs)

(B) Wall Towers

2 AV guns wall level
Top of tower has heavy overhead screening to shield infantry
Accessibility
- from the walls, jump troops or galaxy dropped assault teams, spawn beacon, hot drop.
- each Tower has a fortified catwalk bridge that ties into the spawn barracks at an oulying forward camp
- Shielded doorway - allows access inside the base to an upper level building of the inner court.
- hackable door, to disarm or rearm shielding.

(C) AA Towers

2 AA guns per tower
Accessibility
- Shielded portals prevent bombing to the lower portion (Faction passable only? Hackable bypass?)
- Lift pads carry/descend players
- One way to gain access to the lower tower rooms that access the Upper Deck of the upper level.

(D) Bridge Ramparts

One Bridge extends to each outlying base camp, ties in to that camps spawn barracks.
Defensibility
- Crates, Crenelations, an sections of overhead blast cover. Very similar to most vehicle bridges, but with more cover for infantry fighting infantry assaults pushing across.
Solid Line linking to B Tower
- Would be an underground hallway/room layout, that extends to the barracks of an outlying forward camp. This allows defenders to transport materials, troops and equipment safely to those forward areas during an attack. (similar in concept to the trench tunnels on esamir at some bases)
- This allows attackers and defenders multiple avenues of approach. Tunnel system can come up into either a buiding inside the inner courtyard of the base itself or into the tower.

Outer Base Wall

- red dots are AI turret emplacements
-wall design aesthetics can be identical to the current design, just no gaping ground level openings.

Airpads

Airpads if placed outside on the upper dome, would have terminals inside on the upper level.
If the airpad is placed under the shielded section of the dome, then they would auto launch up an out.

(1) SHIELDED sections

- protection from enemy vehicles passing, shelling or bombarding into the facility.
- Infantry can pass through them without harm (other than the enemy shooting them) via lift pads, galaxy drop or jumpjet
-Dome Shield - generator located on the upper level.
-Gatehouse Shields - generators located inside the inner courtyard.

Inner Court -

very similar to building sprawls outside of the main structure of current base designs, aside from a few key modifications.
- Would have a layout of single an two level structures along the outersections of the inner court.
- Catwalks, accessible from the multi level buildings that go to the Upper level or bridge to other buildings inside the inner court. This will offer a very Core Combat playstyle, where the enemy isn't purely on the ground, an area that acts like a playground for light assault an recon kits.
- 2-3 ammo towers, one near each gatehouse
- Central main building that connects to the upper level, contains vehicle spawn points, equipment terminals, as well houses the SCU shield generator.
- 3-4 buildings along the outer inner courtyard that access rooms in the underground section.

Underground

- Corridors, supply rooms with equipment terminals
- Medical Bay
- MAINSPAWN + Defense teleporters (should be 2-3) to Upper level Rapid Response Teleport room (RRT).
- SCU and CCR shield gen

Upper level

- Air terminals
- A series of Supply rooms with equipment terminals
- Upper level pillbox style balcony bunkers that allow defenders to view/overlap the inner courtyard from above.
- Catwalk access points leading down to ground level buildings along the outer sections of the inner court.
- Dome shield generator room. Protected by a hackable shielded doorway.
- Command Control Room, protected by a hackable shielded doorway.
- Rapid Resonse Teleports in rooms with faction only barriers.

A layout like this would make attacking a defended Major installation will require the attacking force to secure the outlying camps FIRST to guarantee success. Also to consider the more protected and lack of easy access into bases would see a more frequent use in Galaxy drops, to secure the outer walls an upper sections.

Additions? critiques? speculations?