Ghost capping zergs - air domination everywhere else - wordt 2x event ever.

[Helwyr]

Originally Posted by maradine

And then in a few years we'll be complaining about non-stop OS spam instead of vehicle spam. The problem with massive scale is that, sooner or later, everyone gets a pony, and that's a lot of ponies.

A few years? How about a week after it's added to the game. It isn't a problem with "massive scale" it's a problem of everyone having access to everything. Orbital Strikes was done horribly wrong in PS1. If SOE had done leadership abilities as they had done vehicle access ...costs certs, be in the same cert pool as everything else, and have a low Cert/BR cap it would have been fine.

Originally Posted by PoisonTaco

[...]I say you add more mechanics for detecting enemy troop movement. Put radar towers in key outposts. The small ones, not towers, larger bases or facilities. This would add strategic value to these outposts. What would the radar towers do? They would reveal enemy troops within a certain radius. It would not be perfect, and it would not distinguish between vehicles or infantry types. Every few seconds it could ping the area and enemies would show up as red dots on the map for everyone on your team.

These radar towers would cover a very large area, would have generators in their outposts that power them and could be linked to a facility benefit. Perhaps the amp station benefit could increase their range. Either way something to help out with detecting the enemy could help factions prepare their bases for defense.

Words cannot express how much I hate this idea of yours. It's as though I just received a special parcel from Maradine. The last thing PS2 needs is more Radar. It's the exact opposite of what is needed to address Vehicle vs Infantry balance and to discourage players from only zerging the enemy.

Anyway... Merry Christmas everyone!

[Ironside]

Bases/Towers poorly designed, to open, to many ways in, makes it impossible to defend against the zerg and the vehicles spam.
Who in their right mind thinks right we need a base here lets make it open and accessible to the enemy, attacking should be harder than defending, knock ps1 and its choke points but it made for epic fights, i miss fighting for hours for a base,that's why everyone loves the crown, they are long hard fights most of the time

[TheBladeRoden]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

"Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." - Sun Tzu said that

[Mietz]

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

/groan

Dude. This is a game. You don't make people follow your God almighty game design by penalizing them. You simply make them go 'This blows' and they quit and then they go tell all their friends about it. And in the modern social media age, that's lethal poison.

You incentivize forms of gameplay by rewarding, not by taking away.

That is simply incorrect and I'll chalk it up to years of "indoctrination" by Skinner Box and talk about how games need to be "fun" (i.e. disposable entertainment) rather than engaging.

Negative Feedback and Perceptual Control Theory are modern, far superior models compared to Skinner.
These design elements work in many modern games that are not CoD or Zynga/Facebook designs.

Dark Souls is a game that uses negative feedback to condition players, the game sold ~2M on PC alone and has a dedicated fanatical playerbase that will throw money at From Software for anything (even a completely broken PC port).

Imagine if the playerbase of PS2 was this dedicated, SOE would make a killing.

F2P games can't rely on positive feedback as it ends in power-creep with the player demanding ever better rewards to get the same fix.

Moving the reward to a purely personal level works wonders.

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by boogy

...I just don't see any device that will cause joy to one elite player with the result of frustrating a lot of players being better for the game. Orbital strikes, no way.
We don't need it. It doesn't offer anything I can think of that out ways it's negative. It's just a how cool would it be device.
....

I've actually put some thought into that and have come up with the following, it's not perfect but it can help what you're thinking of:
Just like how AMS are abused for their XP, remove the XP from OS and AMS, make them cost resources/whatever and give nothing back. No XP for spawns/kills, no massive OS killspam in the list at upper right...make them tactical tools for the tactically minded.
Like I said, it's not perfect but it's one way to A: reduce spam by removing the incentives and B: ensure that they're not wasted.

[p0intman]

Originally Posted by TheBladeRoden

"Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." - Sun Tzu said that

Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man. Anything built by man, can be destroyed by him.
General George S. Patton.

See? I can quote military legends too.

Actually, Ive got a better one
I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a Goddamned thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like shit through a tin horn!
-General George S. Patton

and to use Sun Tzu to demonstrate your own idiocy to you and to that of anyone else who wants to defend the status quo with Sun Tzu quotes, as it pertains to the giant zergfest idiocy right now:

In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War. c.400-320 B.C.

the point is, quotes mean fuck all, so stop using them and acting like you've got a clue.

[velleity]

The game is being played exactly as the devs intend it and you are all naive to think otherwise.

[p0intman]

Originally Posted by velleity

The game is being played exactly as the devs intend it and you are all naive to think otherwise.

then the way they intended it is god-fucking-awful.

[boogy]

Originally Posted by bpostal

I've actually put some thought into that and have come up with the following, it's not perfect but it can help what you're thinking of:
Just like how AMS are abused for their XP, remove the XP from OS and AMS, make them cost resources/whatever and give nothing back. No XP for spawns/kills, no massive OS killspam in the list at upper right...make them tactical tools for the tactically minded.
Like I said, it's not perfect but it's one way to A: reduce spam by removing the incentives and B: ensure that they're not wasted.

I can see removing xp from AMS as a counter to spam if the spawn radius restriction was also removed. I never liked the spawn radius but I know it's needed.

i do think removing xp and kill count from OS may help reduce everyone wanting to abuse it. Or maybe making orbital strikes non lethal. Make them giant concussion bombs, that also disable vehicles. Or make flak armor very effective against OS. I've never played ps1 so I don't know how it worked but just the very concept of os makes me cringe and think its not worth the headaches and problems associated with balancing them into the game. God I hope they get scrapped.

[p0intman]

Originally Posted by boogy

I can see removing xp from AMS as a counter to spam if the spawn radius restriction was also removed. I never liked the spawn radius but I know it's needed.

i do think removing xp and kill count from OS may help reduce everyone wanting to abuse it. Or maybe making orbital strikes non lethal. Make them giant concussion bombs, that also disable vehicles. Or make flak armor very effective against OS. I've never played ps1 so I don't know how it worked but just the very concept of os makes me cringe and think its not worth the headaches and problems associated with balancing them into the game. God I hope they get scrapped.

in PS1, an os was a tactical nuke that destroyed anything outdoors within a 15-25m radius, with very few exceptions. it had to be launched within the sphere of influence radius of one base area of the target (meaning, not from the other side of the cont, you had to be relatively close). once launched, it took 10-15 seconds to spool up before unleashing its destructive power. it became a learned skill to react quickly and seek cover from an OS or get out of its blast in the later days of PS1.

a little known fact is that if you were lucky, and smart, you could actually stand inside the blast zone and survive, if you were on its very outer edges or were in heavily armored vehicles in the same area. I had at least a dozen ams units i was driving survive with half or less health left over the course of PS1, after being struck with an OS nearby.

given everything, I do not support the introduction of orbital strikes to PS2 at this time. it would take a day and a half before they became as regular as in the later days of PS1.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Helwyr

Words cannot express how much I hate this idea of yours. It's as though I just received a special parcel from Maradine.

Hey, I haven't even shipped those yet. UPS, apparently, has "health standards".

My point re: massive scale was that it magnifies power availability issues. 32 dudes with orbital death ponies is spammy, but when 500 can show up to the same fight, you might want to stay indoors and away from flammable materials.

[boogy]

Originally Posted by p0intman

in PS1, an os was a tactical nuke that destroyed anything outdoors within a 15-25m radius, with very few exceptions. it had to be launched within the sphere of influence radius of one base area of the target (meaning, not from the other side of the cont, you had to be relatively close). once launched, it took 10-15 seconds to spool up before unleashing its destructive power. it became a learned skill to react quickly and seek cover from an OS or get out of its blast in the later days of PS1.

a little known fact is that if you were lucky, and smart, you could actually stand inside the blast zone and survive, if you were on its very outer edges or were in heavily armored vehicles in the same area. I had at least a dozen ams units i was driving survive with half or less health left over the course of PS1, after being struck with an OS nearby.

given everything, I do not support the introduction of orbital strikes to PS2 at this time. it would take a day and a half before they became as regular as in the later days of PS1.

Thanks for the explanation. Yeah adding that to the game sounds disastrous.

[PredatorFour]

What p0intman doesn`t say about os`s from PS is that they were on a timer, 3 hour i think. You couldnt just keep pulling tactical blasts everytime you met the enemy, altho in the end nearly everyone had them so they were widely used.

[TehCandyMan]

I think this all boils down to one thing and one thing only and that is Vehicles are a bit overpowerd in this version of Planetside.

I should not take 10 guys shooting at a tank or 10 guys shooting at a Plane to take them down. And please don't talk to me about certing C-4 to dispatch with tanks.. Because any retarded with a pair of eyes will see you coming from a mile away, now you add the ZERG factor in there and goodluck with getting near them.

These Devs need to give AV and AA more of a bite so we will be able to deal with these Zergs of vehicles. Right now it's almost impossible to deal with them because your having to fight them and soldiers at the same time, and trying to kill tanks and planes is a full time job as it is.

[Sledge]

Here are my two cents:

1. It is still "difficult" to find where the fight is actually happening. You can easily see where the enemy is or heading, but finding your own forces is much more difficult. Because of this, it's easy to head out to a base thinking you're supporting a defensive action and finding no one there but a squad of enemies.

2. There should be shared experience within squads to encourage selfless behavior and team play. A medic always healing people should be rewarded when his squadmates kill enemies too. Perhaps medals for rezzing people or repairing maxes.

3. I usually run with a small squad of 5-7 people. It can be challenging for us to get to behind enemy lines without being spotted. Gal's are too big, Sunderers too slow, and not everyone in my group can fly. Having those buggies that were promised would be a huge help.

4. Defensive experience needs to be boosted. Each defensive kill should have a portion of it's experience sent to a common pool, when the base is successfully defended, the experience is shared amongst the defenders.

5. Defensive layouts of bases are horrible for Tech Plants. Once the enemy has breached the outer gates, chances are they own the air. This makes running out of the spawn and trying to repair generators a near impossible task. Having to run THROUGH the attackers to get to your defensive position is just awful design. The old PS1 bases had many kill zones and hallways to fight over. Most internal space in bases is open to being shelled by tanks.

6. People take the path of least resistance because they see big chunks of exp flash across the screen. They don't realize they get better experience in actual battles (two kills is more experience than taking an outlying base). It's not displayed properly though.

7. It's challenging to find the proper small squad loadout for taking bases. If a Heavy takes an anti-air rocket, he's not going to be able to deal with the tank that shows up. He's also going to be unable to defend the squad from two people with ESFs. The "deterrent" options are not able to deter anything by themselves, which makes sense on a grand balance scale, but makes small unit operations much more difficult.

8. Leadership is cert based. Anyone can get into leader/orders chat, especially people who have no business being there. When one person in your faction is organizing "Flash mobs" which roll out of the base and get annihilated in a few minutes, it hurts those trying to actually play the game.