Lock on rockets really have no place in this game - Page 6

BIGGByran · 2013-02-08, 09:52 PM

You have 100 HA with AA Lock ons. They aim and lock on in about 3 secs assuming they don't lose their aim, then fire. You counter measure with Flares. All rockets have missed and cannot lock on to you for ... 4 secs? So thats about (at best) 10 secs for you to do what you need and get out. 3 Sec for Aim and Lock (no lost of aim) + 4 Sec of Flare (assuming you flare immediately) + 3 Sec for Aim and Lock again = 10 Seconds + 1 or 2 seconds for the missle to get to you, if you aren't already getting out of the area.

Fly in the area, let them lock on, wait half a sec, flare, lay down the thunder, and gtfo before they can lock on again.

And all honesty, I do feel bad for the ESF, as all the buffs for ground to counter Libs hurt the ESF a lot. I think the better solution would be to increase the length of time it takes to lock on ESF by 1 second (maybe).

One game, we had a flying squad and they never complained about AA HA, only max and skygaurd I guess because Flares have no effect of Flak.

CrankyTRex · 2013-02-08, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

You have 100 HA with AA Lock ons. They aim and lock on in about 3 secs assuming they don't lose their aim, then fire. You counter measure with Flares. All rockets have missed and cannot lock on to you for ... 4 secs? So thats about (at best) 10 secs for you to do what you need and get out. 3 Sec for Aim and Lock (no lost of aim) + 4 Sec of Flare (assuming you flare immediately) + 3 Sec for Aim and Lock again = 10 Seconds + 1 or 2 seconds for the missle to get to you, if you aren't already getting out of the area.

Fly in the area, let them lock on, wait half a sec, flare, lay down the thunder, and gtfo before they can lock on again.

And all honesty, I do feel bad for the ESF, as all the buffs for ground to counter Libs hurt the ESF a lot. I think the better solution would be to increase the length of time it takes to lock on ESF by 1 second (maybe).

One game, we had a flying squad and they never complained about AA HA, only max and skygaurd I guess because Flares have no effect of Flak.

Assuming you have unlocked the flares and have them equipped. And you identified the specific area they're firing from to know which way to run. And you are not attempting to engage enemy aircraft such that it would preclude running.

BIGGByran · 2013-02-09, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

Assuming you have unlocked the flares and have them equipped. And you identified the specific area they're firing from to know which way to run. And you are not attempting to engage enemy aircraft such that it would preclude running.

Isn't this like saying, "I was fighting this Prowler with my Vanguard and we were fighting fierce but then a HA on his side rocketed me in the back."?

Dogfights are great and all, but if there are other enemies in the area, they are going to try to shoot you down. So if I see a friendly and enemy aircraft, I will try to help the friendly out. I'm not gonna just sit there and watch.

almalino · 2013-02-09, 05:35 AM

Yesterday I fired lock on rockets may be 100 times and know what? Not a single kill! Of course a lot of kill assist.

SO, I would say lock on rockets are not overpowered. Use flairs and run away if you feel being hit.

When I'm in tank I often see a message someone locked on me. Know what? It doesn't hurt my game.

Baneblade · 2013-02-09, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

Yeah, there's way too much AA now. It's pretty difficult to have any fun dogfighting when everywhere you go some guy on the ground is locking on with a missile you can't see, even if you're at max altitude and in territory your empire appears to own.

If you are at max altitude, the guy locking you isn't on the ground.

Rothnang · 2013-02-09, 10:40 AM

The really big problem I have with lockon missiles vs. air is simply that just like AA guns there are no diminishing returns to using a lot of them on the same target. Liberators and Galaxies can't turn and burn like a fighter can and quickly get out of a dangerous area, and they can't hug a piece of cover and quickly slip in and out like a tank can, so they are simply subject to a numbers game, where if there are enough launchers on the ground they die without being able to really do anything about it.

Tanks vs. Lockons is sort of a different matter. It's still cheap because a tank has no way of knowing if he's about to get peppered with 10 annihilators or if its just one lone guy, but at least when it's ground warfare the tank can have a standoff with the HAs by using cover and repair, so a tank can occupy a large number of people with anti tank weapons instead of just having to leave the battlefield.

bpostal · 2013-02-09, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The really big problem I have with lockon missiles vs. air is simply that just like AA guns there are no diminishing returns to using a lot of them on the same target. ..

That's actually a pretty good point. Perhaps some kind of mechanic that shows the # of people who are currently locked on a given target inside the Annie/SKEP/Grounder HUD and slows lockon time once a certain amount of locks are given, say 150% of the target's life. It's still more than enough to destroy whatever is being locked on, but there may be a chance for a pilot/driver to flee with his/her life.

To be fair though, I still don't see the problem that most people are having with these lockons. You've got flares and you've got smoke.

Mordelicius · 2013-02-09, 11:11 AM

Aircrafts are fine. If anything, they still need a nerf since they are still arguably overpowered. Pilots should be glad they are letting them fly this easy. I'd say SOE is letting pilots do it because they have a lot of sidegrades/upgrades to sell.

- Aircrafts are very cheap (cost)
- Aircrafts have high dps
- Aircrafts have high ambush rating (can come out of nowhere)
- Aircrafts accelerate at a high rate (even from hover!).
- Aircrafts have high speed
- Aircrafts instantly kill infantry
- Aircrafts kill tanks easily (only mags can really evade them)
- Aircrafts have access to space most units can't go to.
- Aircrafts kill other aircraft, tanks, sunderers, flash and any infantry, and turrets. In short, they destroy everything.
- Only certain units can hit back aircrafts accurately. If you are an Engineer, Medic, LA, Infiltrator or Heavy Assault with dumbfire, you're practically out of the equation. Sure, ESFs take damage from dumbfire and small arms, but they kill infantry instantly, it won't matter.

If pilots really want lock-on rockets removed. Then somethings have to happen first:
- Make Aircrafts only twice as fast as infantry (at maximum speed). That would be perfect right there.
- Or, make them accelerate from hover very slowly, cut their ammo capacity to 1/4th, with 1/5th the damage and armor/health halved.
- Or, make them cost 20,000 resources.

Rothnang · 2013-02-09, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by bpostal

That's actually a pretty good point. Perhaps some kind of mechanic that shows the # of people who are currently locked on a given target inside the Annie/SKEP/Grounder HUD and slows lockon time once a certain amount of locks are given, say 150% of the target's life. It's still more than enough to destroy whatever is being locked on, but there may be a chance for a pilot/driver to flee with his/her life.

To be fair though, I still don't see the problem that most people are having with these lockons. You've got flares and you've got smoke.

Flares and Smoke are supposed to be the feature that gives diminishing returns to trying to lock a ton of missiles onto the same target, because one flare defeats unlimited missiles in theory, but the fact that you can only activate them every 25 seconds (And that's with 2000 certs invested) makes them really unfit in that role.

Defensive play, like using cover, needs to work by increasing your survivability while reducing your damage output. That way if a ton of enemies are all firing at the same target he just goes to a full defensive posture and becomes suppressed. That works perfectly with ground units, which is why you rarely ever see situations where tanks just get instagibbed because so many anti-tank weapons are shooting them at the same time, but it doesn't work at all for air units. To some extent it works for fighters, because they can fly evasive maneuvers that really help to mitigate incoming damage, but that doesn't at all work for Liberators and Galaxies, which are 5-10 times bigger than a fighter and not anywhere near as maneuverable.

It's that interplay between defensive and offensive play that really allows teamwork to flourish. Whenever someone says aircraft should just use teamwork to defeat AA they don't seem to understand that you need to have the option for defensive play to really have an effective team. The guy who's taking the fire ducks into cover while the guy who's free to shoot takes some good shots - that's how a good team becomes a force multiplier. In the air however the only way someone can take the AA fire to give other people a chance to shoot is by getting hit with it and dying. That's not teamwork, that's just a Banzai charge.

Baneblade · 2013-02-09, 12:07 PM

ESFs are not supposed to be hanging around long enough to even be destroyed by lock on AA. Their role is fast attack and air superiority. Fast attack doesn't mean expending all ordinance against ground forces and leaving when you need to rearm. Air superiority means destroying other aircraft.

Until ESF rocket spam is removed, us ground units will continue to carry our concealed missiles.

Also, the added XP for damaging Air isn't helping you guys either. I normally wouldn't even shoot at a Lib or a Gal, but now... free XP is fun XP.

VR Draco · 2013-02-09, 12:15 PM

ONLY activate it every 25 seconds?
First, lock immunity 5 seconds and second lock time.

If I assume 5 seconds immunity and 3 seconds lock time you have 17 seconds for a shoot.
This is just fine, what do you want, Flares every 15 seconds?

Take cover works for air units as well as for tanks, but not that easy.
There are enough hills to "dive" behind. If you are attacking a defended position on a plain field, its your fault.

Sure Liberators are quite heavy, but also is their firepower and Galaxies are not killed that easy. I don't see any problem from this view.

And teamplay against AA is not MORE air...get some ground-guys and kill the AA.
If it is an Annhilator-team, snipers are the best counter, most gunners stand still while locking-on.

maradine · 2013-02-09, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

Flares and Smoke are supposed to be the feature that gives diminishing returns to trying to lock a ton of missiles onto the same target, because one flare defeats unlimited missiles in theory, but the fact that you can only activate them every 25 seconds (And that's with 2000 certs invested) makes them really unfit in that role.

You're kidding, right? That's a flare for every attack run you make. That is the functional equivalent of missile immunity.

Rothnang · 2013-02-09, 12:54 PM

Since when does an attack run take 5 seconds? In most of the regions of the game it takes more than 5 seconds just to get from the point where you render to the enemy defenders to a point where you can reasonably take a shot at them, and just as long to get out of their area of influence again.

Also this whole moronic "Get ground to kill the AA for you" argument. By the time ground has enough influence in the region to root out all AA guns and HAs with launchers the battle is over completely without air. Especially AA launchers you pretty much can't get rid of without just flat out depriving the opponent of a spawn location - AKA winning the fight before air can ever move in.

VR Draco · 2013-02-09, 01:09 PM

Then you should not be able to farm kills in those regions and search for another place.

There HAS to be a method to keep air away.

And it is not 5 seconds, its at least 8, if you got stealth even longer. And you should not move in, hover like 2 min and farm your ass up. FAST in, shooting out a missle pod and get the hell out. If you do it this way, you would get far less kills, which is good, but you would not be shoot down.

And you should not fire your damn Flares at the start of the attack. Use it wisely quite a few seconds AFTER the missiles are in the air. Then you have 5 seconds immunity and 3-5 seconds lock-on time AND the time the missile need to fly to you. Enough time to get away.

But not for a damn farming hovering ESF and this is good.

Just counter the arguments Mordelicious brought.
ESF ARE cheap, they ARE powerfull, they kill EVERYTHING, so why not have a good counter? I don't see the point...

maradine · 2013-02-09, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

Since when does an attack run take 5 seconds? In most of the regions of the game it takes more than 5 seconds just to get from the point where you render to the enemy defenders to a point where you can reasonably take a shot at them, and just as long to get out of their area of influence again.

8 seconds, which is your initial lockup timer, missile launch buffer, flare impulse and buffer, and second lockup timer. And that's minus stealth. And I'm about to show you exactly how that works, and exactly what you can do in those 8 seconds.