News: New Esamir Bases

[ringring]

I think the bases are great. I'd rather there were underground levels to fight though but, perhaps there are engine limitations that prevent it as there certainly were at one time.

I'm not so enthralled by the dome. I like the intention but I'd agree that it's not particularly nice and I take other people's point about it probably being a buff for aircraft lol-podders.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Carbon Copied

I don't know about anyone else but I kind of felt that when Lenny Gullo was chatting about his ideas and what he was doing around bases that he gave a more encouraging forecast than a few FNO's back when they had Corey Navage and his take on the level/base design. It's also good to achknowledge "we got it wrong" so I'm actually really encouraged after that sneak peek and reveal of the Esamir re-structure. I'm also happy that there will be another planned pass of Indar later on.

The bases themselves though - they actually dare I say it look like fortresses now which for that "installations in the Siberian style wasteland against the elements" feel I thought was a great step forward and I'm really looking forward to playtesting.

Indeed, Lenny here sounds like he's a function over form level designer, so he's probably more concerned with how players will use X instead of how impressive an art piece it is.

Originally Posted by ringring

I think the bases are great. I'd rather there were underground levels to fight though but, perhaps there are engine limitations that prevent it as there certainly were at one time.

Yeah, it still makes me wonder if what we have are actual holes cut into the 'cloth' that makes up the 'floor' that is terrain, or if they're just ditches with ground flush props over top of them.

Originally Posted by Carbon Copied

Dome shields do feel a cheap band aid solution to the spawn locations and also just to encourage infantry fighting areas. I'm not fully against vehicles domintating the outer "courtyard" in that scale tipping as there should be counter opputunities and vantage points to defenders to deny the area and take it back however overall vehicles are going to be a big part of the way you get in. You should however have these "infantry designated areas" feel more of a natural progression than what is effectively props creating road blocks (although these are good for some areas they shouldn't be the norm); using larger interiors of rooms and tunnels/corridors. I think the domes could work in certain areas on the smaller outposts but it shouldn't be a solution to every problem like on the main facilities.

Yeah, I agree the shields are not as good as actually putting things underground or more complex building layouts, but you have to admit if you did have the ability to put up a "Force Field Umbrella" over otherwise exposed military assets you would do so.

Major Facilities however need a huge overhaul so they can become more functional FPS arenas and less big empty set-pieces we're expected to fight around.

Originally Posted by ringring

I like the intention but I'd agree that it's not particularly nice and I take other people's point about it probably being a buff for aircraft lol-podders.

Well personally I see it as a much better solution then the one the "Airchavs" were suggesting; Raising the Flight Ceiling.
Both are meant to segregate Air and Infantry Combat, but all raising the flight ceiling would do is give all aircraft a space where they're completely untouchable by ground.

At least with the shields their is a limit to Roflpodders Windows of Opportunity, including the increased skill requirement needed to maneuver that low.

...Going to be hilarious to see a RAWKETPODder try to get away, only to snag on the shield emitter and get sent tail spinning into the ground.

[Figment]

Not sure what the rules are for the dome with regards to aircraft.

What if passing the dome creates an EMP effect?

[ringring]

Originally Posted by Figment

Not sure what the rules are for the dome with regards to aircraft.

What if passing the dome creates an EMP effect?

Or there's a pause as you push through and out again, adding to the risk.


No one has commented much on snipers.

[Carbon Copied]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

..Yeah, I agree the shields are not as good as actually putting things underground or more complex building layouts, but you have to admit if you did have the ability to put up a "Force Field Umbrella" over otherwise exposed military assets you would do so.

Major Facilities however need a huge overhaul so they can become more functional FPS arenas and less big empty set-pieces we're expected to fight around...

Definitely they're a "if we had them" asset but as far as gameplay goes it might be too much of a good thing (I know these are all what, if's, but's and maybe's before we've seen them properly used and finished) I mean if these are used (and location depending) they could be in danger of negating the usefulness of the outer defenses e.g turrets and walls on the larger bases. It's a fine line being walked.

I don't think either taking geometry sub-level or dome shields are the one answer to solving the issue with one brush but each has its niche base implementation. I mean outposts might benefit from the domes however I'd like to see the resources of the engine that these domes "free up/save" be spent on improving the big POI's considerably; apart from it giving something visually different in the contested environment it would escape that cookie-cutter trap the domes could fall into, variety and the spice of life. So yeah I definitely think they need to rethink the use of them on some of the larger bases.

[Aiden]

I play infantry almost exclusively, except for my Harasser, and I'm not a fan of the idea of segregating infantry and vehicle combat, in general. We have biolabs, which are great fun and should stay, but we don't need more biolabs.

I also don't like the general attitude of "oh it's like PS1, it must be a good idea!" that I see so often. I'm a PS1 vet, and PS1's gameplay was pretty flawed. For one, combat out in the open was almost nonexistent. Vehicles would zerg from one base to the next, after which they would get out, run inside, and fight the indoor battle. All the open terrain between bases was wasted. There were no epic outdoor battles between bases like with have in PS2.

This seems like a return to that style of gameplay. I don't want to lose that to some rose-colored glasses.

If we don't want vehicles camping spawnrooms, maybe--this may sound crazy--we should move the spawnrooms indoors so they're not easily campable?

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by Figment

Not sure what the rules are for the dome with regards to aircraft.

What if passing the dome creates an EMP effect?

THAT is the first idea i hear about domeshields, that could actually work.

if passing the shield interferes with the aircrafts electronics, disabling the weapons for about 4 seconds, the shields may turn out fair for both, ground and air. it will keep the airdiots from playing peekaboo at the top of a domeshield all the time, but they can still fly in if they feel unnoticed, and cause some havoc.
my concern was about aircraft peeking in to fire a load of rockets and return to safety before any ground to air missiles have even a chance to get a lock.
with an emp effect on the shield, the missiles could get a lock. the aircrafts will back out before the missile can hit, but at least it´s a way to scare the aircraft out, forcing it into another weapon downtime again.
and every salve of lolpods will come for the price of several seconds of flak-danger.

that would be worth a playtest.

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by Aiden

I also don't like the general attitude of "oh it's like PS1, it must be a good idea!" that I see so often. I'm a PS1 vet, and PS1's gameplay was pretty flawed. For one, combat out in the open was almost nonexistent. Vehicles would zerg from one base to the next, after which they would get out, run inside, and fight the indoor battle. All the open terrain between bases was wasted. There were no epic outdoor battles between bases like with have in PS2.

This seems like a return to that style of gameplay. I don't want to lose that to some rose-colored glasses.

If we don't want vehicles camping spawnrooms, maybe--this may sound crazy--we should move the spawnrooms indoors so they're not easily campable?

the last thing is right. and it has been brought up since beta again and again, but the devs never accepted, that the spawncontainers were a big failure.

but the other part of your post has a flaw...

in ps1 most of the space between bases may have been a waste of space, but in ps2 there is no space between bases at all. we don´t have any big landscapes between the bases to waste. that´s why this old problem can´t rise again in ps2.

[Canaris]

Originally Posted by Aiden

I also don't like the general attitude of "oh it's like PS1, it must be a good idea!" that I see so often. I'm a PS1 vet, and PS1's gameplay was pretty flawed. For one, combat out in the open was almost nonexistent. Vehicles would zerg from one base to the next, after which they would get out, run inside, and fight the indoor battle. All the open terrain between bases was wasted. There were no epic outdoor battles between bases like with have in PS2.
This seems like a return to that style of gameplay. I don't want to lose that to some rose-colored glasses.

If we don't want vehicles camping spawnrooms, maybe--this may sound crazy--we should move the spawnrooms indoors so they're not easily campable?

I'm sorry did you just say there was no epic out door battles in PS1?

[Canaris]

Here's one that may have been asked already sorry if I missed it skimming over posts,

say you have the shielded base but no air support at present and a enemy Liberator comes over and drops the end of their belly gun through the shield without exposing the rest of the bird to ground fire. It's going to be very hard to hit the lib in just it's cannon no?

[Hmr85]

Originally Posted by Aiden

I'm a PS1 vet, and PS1's gameplay was pretty flawed. For one, combat out in the open was almost nonexistent. Vehicles would zerg from one base to the next, after which they would get out, run inside, and fight the indoor battle. All the open terrain between bases was wasted. There were no epic outdoor battles between bases like with have in PS2.

You lost me when you got to this part. In all my years of playing PS1. There was plenty of amazingly epic outdoor fights that took place not just near the next facility but also in between them. What you stated was just flat out wrong.

[PredatorFour]

Wait, hang on a second there will be no issue with the shield. Completely forgot but they can just let fire 'escape' the shield, but not enter like the spawns. So esf's will still get shot when escaping. (nooooo lol)

[GeoGnome]

My only thing with the dome shields is that I think they should be such that you can disable them. Either by terminal or by generator.

[Figment]

A very important observation about the Esamir redesigns: outpost walls have no catwalks.


They're just going to provide save approaches if we can't fire down onto approaching enemies from them.

Catwalks and stairs should lead up to the top of the walls and merlons and ballustrades should be there on the outside (not on the inside) to provide the necessary cover for defenders, without generating cover for attackers that try to take the wall. Otherwise, jetpacks are going to have it easy as cake.

And if there's one thing evil compared to pie, it's cake. A wall you can't man creates no advantage, it creates a blind spot for defenders and boxes the defenders in when the opposition has jetpacks and can come over from any side.

[ringring]

Originally Posted by Canaris

I'm sorry did you just say there was no epic out door battles in PS1?

He did, my eyes fell out and I had to pick them up from the floor and put them back in.