AA max VS Sky guard! Why they must be changed.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by snafus

I guess I'll take your word for it man. But still you can't use one individual as the general rule for all pilots. I tend to spend way to much time in my ESF giving me an edge over other pilots in the since of performance. The majority of other pilots have huge issues with the current state of AA.

I also spend quite a bit of time in my ESF (as you know Snafu) and I know I am not as good as you (yet >=) ).

Funny thing is, when I do attack ground (often with just my nose gun when there are no air targets around), the only time AA will be a bother to me is when I get instapoofed. However, when I play my main roll wich is A2A (Vortek + AB pods is about all I use), If I start getting hit by AA, I get out ASAP because if a enemy A2A ESF comes along when I am hurt, I have to start that fight at a sevar disadvantage, Even worse is when I start taking AA fire wile fighting an enemy ESF. At that point you have 2 options, 1. Stay in the AA and hope you move enough that they don't hit you and hope that the enemy ESF will go down in time for you to escape, or 2. Try to run away from the AA fire and lead the enemy ESF to an area that is 'safe'. 2 is what I often choose, but thats not before I tipicly take a good 30% damage from ground fire, and that plus the damage I take from running (assuming a halfway decent pilot) is enough to kill me out right or be very low on HP when I try to re-engauge the pilot (as running will get you killed anyway).


TL;DR, the AA in this game currently helps air to ground farmers because it protects them from A2A ESF.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

I also spend quite a bit of time in my ESF (as you know Snafu) and I know I am not as good as you (yet >=) ).

Funny thing is, when I do attack ground (often with just my nose gun when there are no air targets around), the only time AA will be a bother to me is when I get instapoofed. However, when I play my main roll wich is A2A (Vortek + AB pods is about all I use), If I start getting hit by AA, I get out ASAP because if a enemy A2A ESF comes along when I am hurt, I have to start that fight at a sevar disadvantage, Even worse is when I start taking AA fire wile fighting an enemy ESF. At that point you have 2 options, 1. Stay in the AA and hope you move enough that they don't hit you and hope that the enemy ESF will go down in time for you to escape, or 2. Try to run away from the AA fire and lead the enemy ESF to an area that is 'safe'. 2 is what I often choose, but thats not before I tipicly take a good 30% damage from ground fire, and that plus the damage I take from running (assuming a halfway decent pilot) is enough to kill me out right or be very low on HP when I try to re-engauge the pilot (as running will get you killed anyway).


TL;DR, the AA in this game currently helps air to ground farmers because it protects them from A2A ESF.

That is true as AA fire can give a protective screen to the low altitude flying A2G ESF. It is a common tactic to simply drag an enemy ESF who may have gotten the drop on me while I was firing on ground troops towards friendly AA as it simply takes away his advantage. But for the A2G to have that key advantage on most occasions the terrain must be favorable for him to hide in. Like in northern Indar there is quite literally no advantage to either A2A ESF or A2G since both are equally fucked.

That's why with these proposesed change A2G ESF will still get insta poofed by all the bursters since we have to engage at render range. But allow A2A ESF to hunt efficiently and without being harrased by invisible bursters multiple hexes away.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

TL;DR, the AA in this game currently helps air to ground farmers because it protects them from A2A ESF.

Which is probably the problem here; Air as the ONLY Hard Counter to Air is infeasible, because ESFs might as well roll Air-to-Ground to attack something that can't kill them then nose gun any other Airchavs that get in the way!

So we've got a multi-fold issue here:
Bases are too open, allowing Vehicle to dominate what should be Infantry fights.
Vehicles therefore require the endurance of tissue paper in order to make their ubiquitousness balanced.
Individual Vehicle user end up feeling weak and ineffective, but non-vehicle players don't care because the Vehicles themselves are still more powerful then Infantry and require specific tools to take down.
Combat Air Vehicles in particular have to get the short end of all of this, as their superior mobility already should cost them endurance to begin with.

So... Sorry Airchavs, but they have to fix a lot bigger problems in the game before the Devs can tone down the abundance of Infantry Portable Flak.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

TL;DR, the AA in this game currently helps air to ground farmers because it protects them from A2A ESF.

Somehow, I don't think the guys on the other end of the crosshairs feel like I'm helping them.

[CrankyTRex]

Originally Posted by snafus

I carry pods to mainly assist my outfit as they move from objective to objective. But as you probably know the rockets will simply give you more XPH as your target options open up greatly. And to be honest as long as you have at least one wing man you will never need fuel tanks or A2AM to be effective against air.

I've resisted having rocket pods because I really don't want to be focusing on the ground. Strafing a bunch of things on the ground all day isn't really that interesting. I keep the A2A missiles as extra damage for things like Libs and to pick off runners.

I like A2A combat, and it's the one thing in the game I get the feeling like I matter as an individual. There is nothing more satisfying in this game (for me) than taking out an enemy fighter shooting up one of our Libs. I feel like I accomplished something there.

But at this point, the ground based AA is so effective that it's a waste of time. Start to engage an enemy and one of you will inevitably be lit up by a bunch of AA maxes even if you're so far up even vehicles on the ground haven't started rendering. I want to put the pods on just so I can at least shoot back at the stupid AA once and a while.

I can clear more of the sky (and get more XP) with my stock one-burster Max. Every pilot with sense is going to run the moment you start hitting them and half the time you'll still kill them because they're already taking damage from somebody else half the map away doing the same thing.

[Sledgecrushr]

I fly sometimes, mostly galaxies delivering squads around the map. But from what Ive seen is that I have never even been shot at when I am at max altitude. If you esf guys would start working on high altitude tactics like dive bombing ground and air targets you should be able to hit targets hard and fast and then afterburn your way out of the hot zone.

Edit- If this tactic works it would open up some high altitude air to air fightig which would be a lot safer than down by the bursters.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I fly sometimes, mostly galaxies delivering squads around the map. But from what Ive seen is that I have never even been shot at when I am at max altitude. If you esf guys would start working on high altitude tactics like dive bombing ground and air targets you should be able to hit targets hard and fast and then afterburn your way out of the hot zone.

Edit- If this tactic works it would open up some high altitude air to air fightig which would be a lot safer than down by the bursters.

That all depends on the terrains altitude as well. You can get to flight ceiling at northern indar and be immune to AA. But as soon as you pass the shelf you are not able to go high enough to not render making the tactic less effective. And a lot of A2A ESF already linger at high alt sledge, the problem is the targets they need to be shooting down are going to be at a lower altitude as they attempt to kill ground targets. So there are ways aircraft can avoid AA when terrain dictates but they will force themselves to not be involved in the fight for their safety.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I fly sometimes, mostly galaxies delivering squads around the map. But from what Ive seen is that I have never even been shot at when I am at max altitude. If you esf guys would start working on high altitude tactics like dive bombing ground and air targets you should be able to hit targets hard and fast and then afterburn your way out of the hot zone.

Edit- If this tactic works it would open up some high altitude air to air fightig which would be a lot safer than down by the bursters.

I often do fly 700m+ and watch for targets below me. Take esmir, You will never see general ESF higher than 500m for whatever reasion, so I fly 600-800m wile hunting for targets. Makes it easy to spot enemy ESF and get the jump on them first and then its to climb back up. The problem comes into play that most ESF will fly lower when attacked and pull you into G2A range, its unavoidible unless I break off the moment they get below 400m, and often they are flying only 50m off the ground.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

I often do fly 700m+ and watch for targets below me. Take esmir, You will never see general ESF higher than 500m for whatever reasion, so I fly 600-800m wile hunting for targets. Makes it easy to spot enemy ESF and get the jump on them first and then its to climb back up. The problem comes into play that most ESF will fly lower when attacked and pull you into G2A range, its unavoidible unless I break off the moment they get below 400m, and often they are flying only 50m off the ground.

Though this may be unpopular if they increased the damage a ESF nose gun can do the other ESF it may help some with dog fights. The large issue A2A ESF run into is the TTK is usually to long forcing you to hang around in AA guarded area while trying to kill the ESF.

[CrankyTRex]

Originally Posted by snafus

Though this may be unpopular if they increased the damage a ESF nose gun can do the other ESF it may help some with dog fights. The large issue A2A ESF run into is the TTK is usually to long forcing you to hang around in AA guarded area while trying to kill the ESF.

I don't think that would be a good solution because that's not really the problem. If you get sustained fire on someone they die pretty rapidly, but most pilots are going to turn and engage which starts the spinning war which makes both pilots sitting ducks for the ground stuff.

Another problem with engaging at near max altitude is that you get stuck bouncing off the flight ceiling as you try to maneuver.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

I don't think that would be a good solution because that's not really the problem. If you get sustained fire on someone they die pretty rapidly, but most pilots are going to turn and engage which starts the spinning war which makes both pilots sitting ducks for the ground stuff.

Another problem with engaging at near max altitude is that you get stuck bouncing off the flight ceiling as you try to maneuver.

The problem is a lot of pilots in general have issues with getting sustained fire on anyone. If the TTK of all ESF nose guns were increased this would create much faster dog fights. Though it wouldn't fix the AA problem it would stop such prolonged hover battles. Just an opinion though and by no means a fix everything maneuver.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by snafus

The problem is a lot of pilots in general have issues with getting sustained fire on anyone. If the TTK of all ESF nose guns were increased this would create much faster dog fights. Though it wouldn't fix the AA problem it would stop such prolonged hover battles. Just an opinion though and by no means a fix everything maneuver.

I did like the rotary TTK from beta much better. I approve a faster aircraft TTK

[CrankyTRex]

Originally Posted by snafus

The problem is a lot of pilots in general have issues with getting sustained fire on anyone. If the TTK of all ESF nose guns were increased this would create much faster dog fights. Though it wouldn't fix the AA problem it would stop such prolonged hover battles. Just an opinion though and by no means a fix everything maneuver.

That is true, but it just seems like every vehicle in the game is already made of paper given how fast they die, which is really irritating if you then have to wait for resources or timers.

[Tiberius]

All I gotta say is it still takes more flak to kill an ESF than it did in PS1.

And the data shows that flak the way it is not overpowered because ESFs and liberators have not dissapeared. They are still very effective at farming infantry, and devastating to tanks which is what they are there for.

I'm sorry that its frustrating for you to get shot with flak from far away, but in PS1 infantry AA had lock on missiles that would never break and starfire maxes that could jump to keep a lock on you as you flew away over a hill, so it could be alot worse. (not to mention upgradeable AA turrets)

The only air vehicle that has a right to complain is the Galaxy because it's the AMS of the sky and everyone shoots a galaxy when they see it lol.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

All I gotta say is it still takes more flak to kill an ESF than it did in PS1.

And the data shows that flak the way it is not overpowered because ESFs and liberators have not dissapeared. They are still very effective at farming infantry, and devastating to tanks which is what they are there for.

I'm sorry that its frustrating for you to get shot with flak from far away, but in PS1 infantry AA had lock on missiles that would never break and starfire maxes that could jump to keep a lock on you as you flew away over a hill, so it could be alot worse. (not to mention upgradeable AA turrets)

The only air vehicle that has a right to complain is the Galaxy because it's the AMS of the sky and everyone shoots a galaxy when they see it lol.

Though it could be worse that is no reason to sit by idly and allow it to take place. To allow a game that many of us love to play, slowly die and completely turn against an entire aspect is simply wrong. Hell even Higby, someone who admitted to disliking air says that AA is to strong atm.

And which data are you using to say there are still in abundance or even effective at farming infantry? As I am not sure which source to even look at to prove or disprove that point.

On the Galaxies though I really think they are doing just fine. Anytime myself or my outfit mates fly them we never have an issue with reaching an objective irregardless of the AA presence. Though they could do with some major logistical buffs for more uses. They simply have massive Health pools allowing them to shrug off massive amounts of damage.