Biolab got butchered (PTS) - Page 6

Taramafor · 2013-10-26, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Spoof

That spawn walk and the need for arrows are icons of flawed design. Don't dismiss it.

Take a good, long look at what it is, what it does and how it fits into the game. Experience it, analyse it, critique it. Because if it comes to live you'll get the opportunity to walk it over and over and over and over and over and over...

It gives you no options.
It forces you down a linear route.
It forces you to the vehicle bay, even if you don't need a vehicle.
It forces you into a blind choke point if the vehicle bay is compromised.
It patronises you with "follow this, stupid" arrows.
It makes no functional sense in a purpose-built base with a role to play in the world of Auraxis.

In other words, whoever designed it had absolutely no connection with this game at all. They certainly do not play it.

Every team member is supposedly dedicated to optimisation, and yet somebody found the time to ruin the bio lab. Think about that too. It's like there's a clause in everyone's contract at SOE that somebody must leave their watch inside the patient after every operation.

"Nurse! The chainsaw..."

If ever there were comments that hints at the game being dumbed down for the unenlightened... Hate it when arrows are in games like this. Breaks all immersion.

Emperor Newt · 2013-10-26, 11:24 AM

Well, guiding systems are very common in big military installations. But usually those are not arrows but color-coded lines. Maybe with a few arrows inbetween. But I haven't seen the new biolab so I don't want to comment on those.

stargazer093 · 2013-10-26, 12:08 PM

Oh my f****** god... I..just..dunno what to say anymore.. it`s not only about this stupid base design changing..

I mean, it`s been one year since they launched the game right? ONE ENTIRE YEAR!

and they are still tweaking and changing even the most fundamental design of the game...

I really don`t know anymore, years ago I was fucking exited with that first Vanguard screenshot; years ago I was anticipating this game like there would be no other game I`ll ever play after it`s released; years ago even knowing there are some design I do not agree with, and many more were working in progress, I still held my hope and believing that given time this game will eventually become better and great; year ago when it was released, it wasn`t anywhere near release state, I still held my hope up high cause they said they will listen to feedbacks and everything will be alright soon..

then, a year passed, is the game anywhere near the actual "release state" now? Bit closer than before, perhaps, but look at what were they doing in this whole year apart from releasing more helmet and camo? fundamental designs were changed again and again and again and again, and many time the results were even worse than before thus just created more problems that it is supposed to fix. It just seems to me that the devs do not have any idea of what they are supposed to do. Are the bases suppose to be defendable or not? are the fights supposed to be casual, cod-oriented TDM firefight which attacker/defender are even, or big, long-lasting campaign which factions need to consider logistic, strategic command, supply lines and etc in order to win? Do vehicles actually need players to cooperate or not? If yes, why do MBTs suck so much compare to harassers ? When they "fix" something, do they actually know what they are doing and how silly the outcome actually looks like? Just look at how many different types of shield we have now: the one only defender`s bullet can penetrate but explosives cannot and only defender can walk through; the one that everyone`s bullet can penetrate but explosives can`t and only infantries can walk through, the one that none`s bullet or explosives can penetrate through and only defender`s infantry and vehicles can walk pass and etc. Oh and those absolutely awkward base/outpost designs which are somewhere in between a defendable base and a cod-style TDM map, alone with bunch of outplaced Quack-style jumppad and hoverpad and teleporters all over the area...

well, I don`t know about the others, but at least for me, it seems that the only thing that`s left about PS2 is merely "how good it could have been".. sad sad comparing to merely a year ago

Natir · 2013-10-26, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by stargazer093

Oh my f****** god... I..just..dunno what to say anymore.. it`s not only about this stupid base design changing..

I mean, it`s been one year since they launched the game right? ONE ENTIRE YEAR!

and they are still tweaking and changing even the most fundamental design of the game...

I really don`t know anymore, years ago I was fucking exited with that first Vanguard screenshot; years ago I was anticipating this game like there would be no other game I`ll ever play after it`s released; years ago even knowing there are some design I do not agree with, and many more were working in progress, I still held my hope and believing that given time this game will eventually become better and great; year ago when it was released, it wasn`t anywhere near release state, I still held my hope up high cause they said they will listen to feedbacks and everything will be alright soon..

then, a year passed, is the game anywhere near the actual "release state" now? Bit closer than before, perhaps, but look at what were they doing in this whole year apart from releasing more helmet and camo? fundamental designs were changed again and again and again and again, and many time the results were even worse than before thus just created more problems that it is supposed to fix. It just seems to me that the devs do not have any idea of what they are supposed to do. Are the bases suppose to be defendable or not? are the fights supposed to be casual, cod-oriented TDM firefight which attacker/defender are even, or big, long-lasting campaign which factions need to consider logistic, strategic command, supply lines and etc in order to win? Do vehicles actually need players to cooperate or not? If yes, why do MBTs suck so much compare to harassers ? When they "fix" something, do they actually know what they are doing and how silly the outcome actually looks like? Just look at how many different types of shield we have now: the one only defender`s bullet can penetrate but explosives cannot and only defender can walk through; the one that everyone`s bullet can penetrate but explosives can`t and only infantries can walk through, the one that none`s bullet or explosives can penetrate through and only defender`s infantry and vehicles can walk pass and etc. Oh and those absolutely awkward base/outpost designs which are somewhere in between a defendable base and a cod-style TDM map, alone with bunch of outplaced Quack-style jumppad and hoverpad and teleporters all over the area...

well, I don`t know about the others, but at least for me, it seems that the only thing that`s left about PS2 is merely "how good it could have been".. sad sad comparing to merely a year ago

This is sadly what happens when you have designers who never played Planetside 1. This is what happens when the designers do not play Planetside 2. This is further a problem is that Planetside 2 is free to play. Due to that model, you are forced to do certain things as a game developer. Such as selling weapons rather than adding them to the level progression. Remind me again what the point is with leveling? Certs are not tied to leveling. The exp grind is just atrocious if you do not have at least a sub or boost.

Here is the thing though, Planetside 2 is not a sequel to Planetside. It is no where close to even being a sequel. They took the Planetside 1 IP and just wanted to make a generic shooter game. That is what they got, a generic shooter game with a persistent world.

Blynd · 2013-10-26, 04:27 PM

Well just had this reply on twitter from tray

"@PS_TRay: @Blynd_inc @Arclegger says you? I'm sure the changes were based on feedback and data not 'feeling' or 'emotions'"

Rivenshield · 2013-10-26, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe

I think they might just put the pc version in maintenance mode and focus on developing the console side and just pump out the camo/bling/op-weapons for both platforms.

And when the consolekiddies abandon PS2 for the next big shiny thing in six months... what then?

Also, has anybody heard from Malorn recently? Did he survive the chopping block? He was the most experienced and erudite of the pro-defense Traditionalist faction.

Maidere · 2013-10-26, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Blynd

Well just had this reply on twitter from tray

"@PS_TRay: @Blynd_inc @Arclegger says you? I'm sure the changes were based on feedback and data not 'feeling' or 'emotions'"

Let's see how it works when the changes hit live server, but I suspect that if things will go the wrong way they will just say "we've been listening to the most populated PS2 social hub aka Reddit".

Jax Blake · 2013-10-26, 05:28 PM

I just logged onto to the test server to check out this horrible design and see what the new ui brought in but for those fighting there is the base capture timer still about 2:15 if you own all the points? If the timer has not been reverted back then this is even worse than I thought because you're spending what 25-30 seconds after death trying to get back into the fight that will last two minutes IF you're there to immediately respond to it?

To those of you who are saying that now the sub bases will be used I just have to ask what effin game are you guys playing? Do you think that the teleport room won't be just as camped? What happens if you have no Sunderer right next to the transporter at the sub base? What does the time look like from death to respawn at sub base, adding in the run time to the teleport room or the jump pad which will also be camped? Do you guys not have outfits like Future Crew who go out of their way to farm stupid ass Sunderers in positions like the one your presenting here? Zerg has the inside of the base on lockdown so they know you have to come from your sub base, do you not have a VS21314 out there with his infil smg assaulting your guys, or nixi and krunkk in their marauder harasser farming the hell out of idiots running around, haven't seen them in a while but Sir Phobos and Punki would surely be over that farm with their Zephyr lib just laughing it up?

This change is one of the worst ever and I find the complete lack of response from SOE an even bigger insult to the player base that has supported this game for almost a year but I see Higby down their in brazil getting his drink on so I guess it's good someone is having some fun. I mean he is the creative director right, this change appears to have the absolute wrong creativity going with it. Every single time someone asked Luperza something that wasn't optimization we got told that everything is on hold for optimization and the very first thing they show us post optimization is this garbage? How about we put the level and base design team to work on Hossin or fix the joke of a competitive map called Nexus and not present us with this disaster. I hope Smed is reading all this, and if you're reading this Smed then it's time for you to get your house in order again.

ChipMHazard · 2013-10-26, 06:58 PM

May I suggest that people calm down a bit. If we don't stay constructive with our criticism then chances are that SOE probably won't listen/read our feedback or at least not take it all that seriously. No reason to go all internet on this

Not counting the vehicle bay teleporter. (If they want there to be a teleporter going from the spawn to the vehicle bay, good. But make sure that there's also a teleporter going from spawn to spawn exit. The current design begs for camping to be done.)

I do like a lot of the changes that they've done to the Bio Lab itself.
I think they've done a really good job at improving the ground level design overall with well placed cover and preventing a lot of the ground level camping of the spawn exit.
I like what they've done to the teleporter room leading into the SCU shield gen building and I also like the shield between the two bridges.
Not sure about the more open area leading to the SCU gen from the spawn exit, seems too easy to camp from a vertical position.
They haven't done a whole lot to prevent vertical camping of the spawn exit or the two other teleporter rooms. The branching tree and central pillar are going to be prime areas from where to camp the spawn exit.

Overall atm. the design favors the attackers the most, again not counting the vehicle bay teleporter, and they need to make some more improvements against vertical camping of the defenders.
Might be an idea to increase the cap time.

Edit: When it comes to the arrows. Well I don't mind having arrows or lines showing you where to go, since that's pretty normal in big complexes. These I don't really like because they remind me more of placeholders. I would prefer an actual colored and labeld line going to where it's supposed to. These ones remind me too much of treasure hunting as a kid

Skittles · 2013-10-26, 07:50 PM

Just to clear up what a few of you have said. The devs not only did NOT play Planetside1, they had full-blown, outright, contempt and hatred for Planetside1 and MORE then made that evident before beta, during beta, and after release.

I've also noticed in not just this thread, but the "never going to resub" thread it mentioned a few times some might come back when the game begins to resemble PS1. That is a real pipedream.

I think many of you need to re-read Blynd's reddit post that TRay said and what Im sure is not just TRay's attitude towards PS2, but the dev-SOE's attitude since the very, very beginning of this games development. Its about as subtle as a slap to the face from the outside looking in on your guy's game. He says "We're going to do what we're going to do." Its been the dev stance since the beginning. Its been that way since PS1, really. Its a SOE motto, its mission statement.

Babyfark McGeez · 2013-10-26, 08:01 PM

Now i'm not saying anything more about the actual design (because frankly, it has all been said here), but i have to comment on the arrows because i saw some hate thrown at them too;

I think they are a step in the right direction and i like them. They might look kinda cheesy in their current form, but they are exactly what's needed in the bases (and one thing i wish we had in PS1). We all complained about the lack of information and visual aid, those arrows are a start.

So don't hate on the arrows.

Carbon Copied · 2013-10-26, 08:23 PM

Level design based on excel spreadsheet data now? Interesting notion - then again excel spreadsheet data is solving the outfit recognition and population imbalance as well so why not? Ok maybe that was a cheap shot... but the point of validity stands.

On topic: something about PTS has always bugged me and that's that we're not really "testing" per se (stick with me here there is a point) - more of a "preview for the next GU" server would be a better title. Now take the bio lab as an example I'd want to see 3 if not more, significant designs of bio lab to actually test and find the better version that benefits the game and play styles - why dick around with guessing and not just get it right first time? Ok so it takes longer to put together as a project to critique and you can't satisfy every person's suggestions but there are clear re-occuring topics that come up in one way or another and I think most are reasonable to wait for some good rather than hope that designers are going to smell what they're shoveling and chance upon changing it for the better. Think of it like taste testing products in the super market: the assistant doesn't usually ask you for your opinion on cheeses, have only one cheese available and then stick it down your throat regardless.

Design of this game isn't a democracy and it's SOE's train set; but unless they want to see those dollar signs ticking over and people buying into their train set on a regular subscription basis then they may want to try a more open and choicest approach to designs they're proposing to get the best out of their own end product.

Badjuju · 2013-10-27, 01:26 AM

Jesus these forums are becoming as bad as the official forums. Chip is right, anything besides constructive criticism is a waste of time. These tired rants solve nothing, especially when many complaining haven't even logged on the test server to check out the changes themselves, let alone test them out.

Overall the changes to the interior of the bio lab look amazing to me. It has been cleaned up allot and looks like it should offer better fights.

What is in question for me is how the shields work. I tried to test it out but had some bad luck and gave up. What I am hoping is that the vehicle shields remain up until the scu goes down (not the scu gen). Itis what would make sense to me. If this is not the case then I think it would be a needed change with how vulnerable the scu gen is.

I am not so concerned with the distance. I think the devs are trying to bring the fight inside the bio lab instead of it being the camp fest it is now. Being able to spawn right on top of objectives is just silly. Defenders farm the crap out the attackers until they bring enough numbers to kill the fight before the the base can even be capped. It would be awesome to see some prolonged fights take place within the base which is what I think they are trying to accomplish between the new spawn lay out and interior redesign.

A defensible base shouldn't rely on regurgitating players right on top objectives. It should rely on a lay out which supports good team play.

Oh, also I was in the marines. You would be surprised at how many arrows exist in just about any military instillation. Although, it wouldn't hurt to make them less dramatic and more professional looking.

LeilaniRock · 2013-10-27, 05:36 AM

^^and i still have loads of fun in the new biolabs (about 6hrs spend on test)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

ringring · 2013-10-27, 06:05 AM

Being constructive ... I like the idea of the arrows. One of the things I criticised the tunnels under the Amp Stations was that it wasn't obvious where they lead to and in fact they'd been in live for a while before a lot of people noticed they existed.

So, no hate on the arrows from me.

The new barriers? I haven't looked but I don't see anything negative on the videos I've seen.

What really gets me is that they seems to be a wish to have bases that are not defendable in fact ever since tech test the community has had to push and push. Bases and outposts were about as 'drive-thru' as a McDonalds. Anyone remember the initial Amp Station without the walls?

As Carboncopied said, it's their train set and not mine or any of ours.