Israel - Page 7

Necronile · 2012-08-07, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

"African infiltrators threaten the State of Israel"

The parallels I could draw between what this guy is saying and what people used to say about **** is staggering.

There's a difference between enforcing immigration laws, and wanting to deport all Africans and put them into camps and deny them health care and charge anyone who offers them aid.

I am not interested in more conjecture. If you don't have any actual evidence the picture is a fraud then just let it go. As I said, who even cares about this particular photo? There are hundreds of children who've been killed by airstrikes by the IDF, it's not like that picture would be some kind of smoking gun.

And what ? you think the IDF aims for the civillians on purpose?
The only reason civillians get killed is the fact that hamas and other terror organizations hide behind them while firing hundreds of rockets if not thousands.

MightyMan · 2012-08-07, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by TheDAWinz

This thread should be renamed U.S. vs Mexico. I say we carpet nuke them!

Sorry man but the 1st of April is too far for me to do that.

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

Funny thing is that the conditions were already bad in east Berlin before the World War era, so putting up a wall didn't worsen the area. The workers in East Berlin were well-trained, and were being taken care of better than before the wall went up. When the wall came down, workers in the East divisions were better trained and educated, but would be exploited the same as any other worker, and it is cited that the East division workers were responsible for German innovation and economic growth after the wall came down.

I wouldn't consider the apartheid to be anything close to East/West Berlin. Berlin was a matter of two opposing ideologies represented by two super-powers of the time. Israel and USA vs Palestine is much more of a one-sided oppression, in the form of apartheid.

Israel would not be "wiped out" by Arab nation if it is a one-state that gives fair rights and liberties to all citizens, Jewish or Muslim or Christian or otherwise, Arab or *** or anything else. It would make no sense to wipe out a nation that is peaceful and doesn't oppress its citizens, and doesn't have the goal of becoming a 100% Jewish state.

-

Peace talks broke down in Israel because the PLO was declared the representatives of the Palestinian people (not by Israel), despite being one of many organizations struggling for peace. It would be like if America was invaded, and the Tea Party was selected to represent all American citizens in the now-occupied country.

After PLO was declared the representative of Palestinian people, it was easy to pick a few things about them that Israeli government didn't approve, and then declare that they would not conduct any more peace talks with the only group that is recognized as representing Palestinians. Current leadership is Israel refuses to try to make peace with a group that all Palestinians don't even feel represent them or their ideals. So no, it isn't on the side of Palestinians, the fault and failure of peace negotiations is a combination of the recognition of PLO as the only group to represent Palestinians, and the ability for Israel's leadership to decline further peace talks with the one organization that got to be recognized to represent Palestinians.

The average Palestinian citizen has no voice, has no power, has no group to join in with peace talks or liberation that can make progress with the government. Sounds like the only things they can do are fight back or leave, kinda tough place to be in.

Then again, if you kick me out of my home, drive me to a dirt lot, and tell me to live there from now on, I'm gonna come back with the meanest things I can to try to reclaim my home, or at least make it unlivable for those who kicked me out. Palestinians who fight for their liberation aren't doing any different. The original settlements purchased by European Zionists are tiny little places, and they were bought long before the World War era. Everything else Israel has gained has been through military action.

Neurotoxin you dumb, dumb infantile. If I can still respect Warborn's arguments for making logic in theory, you'r arguments are just a bunch of things that a terrified kid would tell to his mother after he was scared by the monster under his bed. There are so many things that are flawed in you'r logic and you'r basic knowledge, that it just amazes me.
In you'r arguments you have presented nothing but conspiracies, and you choose to completely ignore not only my arguments but also reality.

LETS START:

1. USA IS NOT WITH ISRAEL ON THIS CONFLICT. INFACT, THE USA HELPED TO MAINTAIN THE CONFLICT PEACEFUL (lol, but there is bombing ( only at terrorists). LOL BUT THERE IS NO WAR). They are on neither side of the conflict and are natural.
The USA did not take part in any of the wars of Israel with the surrounding countries. In fact, they are the one who helped to organize most of the peace treaties of Israel with the surrounding countries, and the one who organizes the peace talks between Israel and Palestine.

2. Israel WOULD be wiped out. YOU KNOW WHY? Because of ideology. Not because we are in a conflict with the Palestinians. Religion (or at least religious leaders) tell them that Israelis are sinners, demons, satan, drinkers of arab baby blood, and should be punished for insulting Allah with their religion.
That is the common ideology in countries like Iran who shout all the time stuff like "LOLZ WE GONNA MAKE BOMB AND THROW IT ON YOU" "LOLZ WE ARE GOING TO MASSACRE YOU". Now other countries, who are a bit more sane then Iran, would go in war with Israel, for the simple reason of gaining profit from it. The rule gets more popularity, and in case of victory, they gain new territories and resources. Unlike what you may think, the rule of most of the arab countries do not give two shits about Palestinians. And unlike what you may think, if Israel puts it's guns down and gives away all of the territories, there wouldn't be a big tea party with balloons and cakes, instead, the territories would be used to launch attacks on more populated territories of Israel. Palestinian people will not just say "hey hey hey, you gave us the territories now we are BFFs, they would demand all the remaining territories too. It is simple human logic.

3. PLO was not declared as the representative of the Palestinian nation. The
"Palestinian National Authority" was declared as the representative. Now you may say "But hey, it was still declared Israel and not by the Palestinian nation" and I would slap you. The PNA is only the government in general. Just like in any democratic country. The actual members of the government are chosen by the Palestinian people. The only thing that Israel has declared about the PLO is the fact that they are no longer hostile towards each other (before 1993 the PLO was a terrorist organisation who called for wiping out Israel).
It was elected as the ruling party in the Palestinian government by Palestinian citizens only. Now you may say: hurr durr Israel was responsible for the election, by using fake votes and stuffs. The funny thing is that the PLO is no longer the ruling party of the Palestinian government. Beginning from 2005 until today, the ruling party is the Fatah. The REAL funny thing here is that the Fatah is completely hostile towards Israel. So saying that Israel somehow steers the elections in it's favors is ridiculous.

"The average Palestinian citizen has no voice, has no power, has no group to join in with peace talks or liberation that can make progress with the government. Sounds like the only things they can do are fight back or leave, kinda tough place to be in. "

Ludicrous. As said above, Palestinians CAN vote. They DO have power. As citizens of Palestine (they even have their own Palestinian passports for gods sake). Why don't they have power in Israel? Because they are not citizens of Israel, just like French people don't have power in Britain.

"Then again, if you kick me out of my home, drive me to a dirt lot, and tell me to live there from now on"

Fuck off. No Palestinians have EVER been kicked out of their homes. Those that lost their homes, were the one who left them willingly after the establishment of Israel to the surrounding countries. Years later they come back, crazed by flawed ideology and start shouting "Those are our homes. It's not like our families willingly gave them up years ago to move into different territory, and it's not like the Palestinians who stayed in Israel are now Israeli citizen who's homes were never touched by other Israelis, totally. We are the rightful owners of those territories even though we have no documents what so ever about it".
Does that sound logical to you? DOES IT?

"The original settlements purchased by European Zionists are tiny little places, and they were bought long before the World War era. Everything else Israel has gained has been through military action."
So, half the country was Israel's as it was divided by the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.
The other half was Palestinian. Right after the establishment of Israel (on the same day), 6 surrounding arab countries have declared a war on Israel, to try and conquer the Israeli half. At the time of war the Palestinian territory was under the rule of Jordan. At then, Israel won the war and conquered Jordan's Palestinian territories. Now, Instead of having 100% of the territories, 25% were given to the Palestinians (willingly, without war), and those territories are now fully under Palestinian. Another territory that was conquered by Israel is the Gaza strip which is about 5% of Israel which was given to the Palestinians too. Which means that as of now 70% of the territories belong to Israel and 30% belong to Palestine.
Originally, 55% of the territories were supposed to be Israel's which means that right now, 15% of Israel's territory were actually occupied from another country. A hostile country. One that has nothing to do with Palestine.

You did not even try to research the history of this conflict before you rammed in shouting that Israel is jack the ripper and that Palestine is mother Teresa did you?

MightyMan · 2012-08-07, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

"African infiltrators threaten the State of Israel"

The parallels I could draw between what this guy is saying and what people used to say about **** is staggering.

There's a difference between enforcing immigration laws, and wanting to deport all Africans and put them into camps and deny them health care and charge anyone who offers them aid.

I am not interested in more conjecture. If you don't have any actual evidence the picture is a fraud then just let it go. As I said, who even cares about this particular photo? There are hundreds of children who've been killed by airstrikes by the IDF, it's not like that picture would be some kind of smoking gun.

Wait... So you mean that the fact that he would die from the explosion of the rocket is not enough? Nice one.
"hundreds of children who've been killed by airstrikes by the IDF"
Clearly you have chosen to completely ignore my replies.
Oh and BTW: If you don't actually have any actual evidence that the IDF did this then just let it go.
HOW WOULD HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN DIE IF THE IDF DOES NOT ATTACK CIVILIAN TARGETS. HOW?

"wanting to deport all Africans and put them into camps and deny them health care and charge anyone who offers them aid. "

Why would wanting to deport illegal immigrants be a wrong thing? They are illegal. Why would putting them into camps be wrong? Does it mean that they would be treated like animals? No. It means that instead of sleeping on the ground with no means of acquiring money other then illegal activity and collecting bottles, they are given a bed, warm meals, a toilet and safety.
Where the hell did you read that they are denied health care, and that those who offer them aid a charged is a mystery to me.

And as of the things told by Netanyahu and Yishai, as I said Netantahu is a dumb ass while Yishai is a racist idiot who is in favor of the illegal settlers and is no less of a donkey, and I am ashamed that he is part of the government.

Warborn · 2012-08-07, 12:26 PM

Operation Cast Lead alone resulted in over 300 children and almost 100 women being killed by Israeli airstrikes and artillery. It may be that IDF commanders do not begin an operation like this specifically deciding they want to kill children or civilians in general, but it's quite obvious that they do not care if they do. After Cast Lead, Israel was roundly condemned by the UN and international community (except the US, Canada, Australia, and a couple other shitholes) and accused of war crimes by the UN.

Necronile · 2012-08-07, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Operation Cast Lead alone resulted in over 300 children and almost 100 women being killed by Israeli airstrikes and artillery. It may be that IDF commanders do not begin an operation like this specifically deciding they want to kill children or civilians in general, but it's quite obvious that they do not care if they do. After Cast Lead, Israel was roundly condemned by the UN and international community (except the US, Canada, Australia, and a couple other shitholes) and accused of war crimes by the UN.

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-08-07, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Necronile

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

This is a thread about Israel. While I would certainly not argue with you that crimes against humanity were committed by the US (and its allies, and enemies... it's impossible to conduct a war and not commit atrocities), this is a conversation about Israel and pointing at someone else and saying "But he does it too!" does not absolve someone of their action.

I think the point here is that Israel is particularly egregious because it has in this case in specific and in other cases in general launched attacks on civilian populations under the guise of striking military or insurgent targets.

Necronile · 2012-08-07, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

This is a thread about Israel. While I would certainly not argue with you that crimes against humanity were committed by the US (and its allies, and enemies... it's impossible to conduct a war and not commit atrocities), this is a conversation about Israel and pointing at someone else and saying "But he does it too!" does not absolve someone of their action.

I think the point here is that Israel is particularly egregious because it has in this case in specific and in other cases in general launched attacks on civilian populations under the guise of striking military or insurgent targets.

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-08-07, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Necronile

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

Does it not strike you as being much more likely that Hamas lives and operates among the Palestinian citizenry because many of them are, in fact, Palestinian citizenry? I find it very unlikely that Palestinian members of Hamas are using their friends and neighbors as 'human shields', and are rather hiding in plain sight among their own people.

Neurotoxin · 2012-08-07, 03:13 PM

Yeah, you are right, Israel is perfect, they totally stole the Golan Heights from Syria because it was justified, they totally need to finish the job of wiping out those pesky natives that wanna call themselves Palestinians. Just like America is perfect, American murder and genocide of Native Americans was fine because they were godless savages who didn't understand property rights, and theft of property from Mexico (at gunpoint in Mexico City) was fine because America said it wanted a parallel country.

No sense arguing with someone who is brainwashed by ideology that supports them. You may have a few facts right, but your history of the struggle in the region is very biased and one-sided. I listen to the stories of the victims to learn about what is going on, not from learning the oppressor's ideology and justifications for brutal occupation. I know many Palestinians that still have the key to the lock on the front door of the house they used to live in, some even have photos or other details connecting them with their legitimate homes.

To everybody else, if you ever meet someone who has an oxidized key around their neck, who appears to be of Middle-Eastern descent, ask them about the key. If they turn out to be Palestinian, ask them more. Learn from victims, not oppressors.

This discussion has been a clinic in Zionist defense and deflection against blame for crimes against Palestinians. No more posts from me on this discussion, as you know my stance by now.

One last detail for anyone who cares, I organize with ANSWER Coalition to defend the rights of all oppressed people to self-determination within their own country, as well as fighting to end Apartheid wherever it exists in the world, and that isn't all ANSWER does either. Click the link and read up on Palestine from a different perspective than the Zionist pro-Israel narrative.

Figment · 2012-08-07, 07:11 PM

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...al-geogaffe-ic

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...-romney-abroad

Israeli's? Mexicans? This seems fitting for this thread.

Warborn · 2012-08-07, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Necronile

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

Sure, the US is probably guilty of some war crimes fro Iraq. Maybe Falluja, if not the entire war being an illegal war of aggression? The Allies also perpetrated many war crimes in World War 2. Robert McNamara, in The Fog of War, says outright that them firebombing Tokyo and elsewhere and especially deciding to drop the nukes were war crimes, and they'd have been hanged if the war were lost.

IDF commanders aren't going to go to jail. Who's going to charge them? The Israeli courts? Are you kidding? They have nothing to fear. There isn't anything the government wants more than to be rid of the Palestinians. They aren't going to throw their own people to the wolves over a few hundred dead Palestinian children.

Originally Posted by Necronile

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

What they want is to force the Palestinians into submission. It's why they keep Gaza and the West Bank on the brink of economic collapse indefinitely. They want to make life as shitty as they can without causing a major humanitarian crisis, and that's straight from Wikileaks.

WildGunsTomcat · 2012-08-08, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

It would be nice if you and your Muslim neighbors could stop killing and hating each other long enough to work together to build a better and more functional society. You might find they'll be less focused on having their own country if they felt welcomed in yours. I'm speaking more to your government and your culture as a whole rather than to just you, mind. I don't imagine its your fault personally.

It's just such a waste of time, having two cultures of people living in such close proximity who hate each other because they have different invisible friends. It's depressing, and a major source for a lot of unnecessary conflict in that region.

I agree.

As an aside: Neither Christ...Nor Muhammad...would want this. They both taught tolerance and peace, something the modern religious don't really have much of a grasp on.

Jesus would go to Chik-Fil-A...and break bread with a married gay couple. Guaranteed. I'm not even joking either. All of this bullshit about "Well he's not like me...and he doesn't believe what I believe...so he's going to some imagined hell..." Is BS. I patently reject the King James Bible. Humans are humans...gay...straight...black...white. We're all on the same ride...so why be hateful to each other? Why tell someone they're going to hell because they don't believe the same things you do, because a 2000 year old book says so? Do you think that a loving creator would banish someone to hell because they loved someone that a book says they shouldn't love? Rubbish. Unadulterated rubbish.

People are interpreting a book different ways...and telling gays they can't marry...or killing each other...etc...over an interpretation of a book.

If one believes in God/Allah...and what Christ/Muhammad said...then you should embrace your neighbor as your brother...you should rejoice in someone being in love and finding their soul mate...be they gay or not...

I myself believe in a higher power. I don't call it God...because that diminishes what it is for me. I don't subscribe to religion...because that is a shackle.

Live in peace...and embrace knowledge.

/thread

Warborn · 2012-08-08, 12:19 AM

Hey guys I found the solution to crime: Criminals just need to stop committing crimes.

/thread

Unfortunately shit isn't as easy as "why can't we just get along". One side has the army, the police, the political power, and all the other cards, and they ain't taking a step.

WildGunsTomcat · 2012-08-08, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Hey guys I found the solution to crime: Criminals just need to stop committing crimes.

/thread

Unfortunately shit isn't as easy as "why can't we just get along". One side has the army, the police, the political power, and all the other cards, and they ain't taking a step.

And that's why I choose not to get involved. I live my life, and leave the rest of the world to figure it out. It's not worth my sanity.

Necronile · 2012-08-08, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

What they want is to force the Palestinians into submission. It's why they keep Gaza and the West Bank on the brink of economic collapse indefinitely. They want to make life as shitty as they can without causing a major humanitarian crisis, and that's straight from Wikileaks.

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

Yeah, you are right, Israel is perfect, they totally stole the Golan Heights from Syria because it was justified, they totally need to finish the job of wiping out those pesky natives that wanna call themselves Palestinians. Just like America is perfect, American murder and genocide of Native Americans was fine because they were godless savages who didn't understand property rights, and theft of property from Mexico (at gunpoint in Mexico City) was fine because America said it wanted a parallel country.

No sense arguing with someone who is brainwashed by ideology that supports them. You may have a few facts right, but your history of the struggle in the region is very biased and one-sided. I listen to the stories of the victims to learn about what is going on, not from learning the oppressor's ideology and justifications for brutal occupation. I know many Palestinians that still have the key to the lock on the front door of the house they used to live in, some even have photos or other details connecting them with their legitimate homes.

To everybody else, if you ever meet someone who has an oxidized key around their neck, who appears to be of Middle-Eastern descent, ask them about the key. If they turn out to be Palestinian, ask them more. Learn from victims, not oppressors.

This discussion has been a clinic in Zionist defense and deflection against blame for crimes against Palestinians. No more posts from me on this discussion, as you know my stance by now.

One last detail for anyone who cares, I organize with ANSWER Coalition to defend the rights of all oppressed people to self-determination within their own country, as well as fighting to end Apartheid wherever it exists in the world, and that isn't all ANSWER does either. Click the link and read up on Palestine from a different perspective than the Zionist pro-Israel narrative.

Same thing I can say about Palestinian and other arab people.
If I am brainwashed by ideology they are also brainwashed,thats what we learned through history...
and its kind of stupid for you to say its biased one sided struggle when you only concentrate on what happend to the palestinians only and not the ****.
Also get your facts straight about the golan heights,Israel didnt steal It,she occupied it after syria attacked her.
The only reason its still not in syria's hands its because they did not want to make peace like the rest of the arab countries.