Lets talk about the ressource system. Right now, its borderline Pay to Win - Page 7

Crator · 2013-06-23, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by omega four

I also know that many PS2 gamers don't realize that they're being farmed by SOE. And even if they did (like myself), they really don't care so long as they feel they're getting their money's worth.

Can you define farmed? I don't think I am being farmed. I never once bought station cash. I've had a monthly membership which gave me SC.

I feel more farmed from paying a monthly sub for PS1 for as long as I did more then I feel farmed for paying a sub for PS2. At least I can discontinue my sub and still play PS2 if I want.

What others do with their money (if they want to throw it at the game) is their problem.

Dragonskin · 2013-06-23, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

Can you define farmed? I don't think I am being farmed. I never once bought station cash. I've had a monthly membership which gave me SC.

I'm not being farmed for sure. I do give SOE money fairly regularly, but I feel Planetside 2 is worth it. I get days of enjoyment from this game. Not minutes or hours... DAYS. You can see my stats of played time in my signature. For the amount of enjoyment I get out of this game compared to other sources of entertainment... I am totally getting my monies worth. Better than buying these 10-15 hour games that cost $50-60 a pop and then leaving you wanting another new game for another $50-60 that will last another 10-15 hours if you are lucky.

Captain1nsaneo · 2013-06-23, 11:11 PM

Arguing over if something is worth paying for or how much should be charged are arguments based on values rather than facts and as such can have no general answer.

I'm more interested in the resource system. Mainly the statement that their goal with the resource system is that it will be the reason for people to keep playing. Now that I've re-read it I remember the devs talking about this about half a year before release so this makes sense.
My take on it is that it won't work because the notion is flawed at its core. Resources aren't things you fight for in games, they're things that logistics deals with so you can get to the point where you can reach your end goal.
A good end game goal is something you can take a screen shot of. Resources don't fit that. They don't mesh with bragging rights and they don't spawn a sense of pride. Resources aren't exciting and they're not visible. As such they are bad end goals or reasons for fighting.
Resources are also pains to deal with because they're victim to the 'rich get richer' problem of conquest and if you try to fix it with diminishing returns then you're actually providing a disincentive to your players to keep winning and if they do win their reward is actually tiny.
In regards to limiting vehicles and powerful weapons the 3 resource system has another massive flaw with it in that it ignores that there are already 2 other much more important resources which balance them. Time and skilled operators. Accessibility is a major influence for vehicles since some aren't always available from spawn points. Usable items such as grenades, c4, and mines have their own limiters in the number a player can carry at once and a cert point gate. The 3 resource system is competing with the systems that are already in the game and the slower one is winning at the moment. If there's concern that removal of the resources as is would lead to utility spam then put in a passive timer for items that slowly build up a stockpile over time.
If the resource system is going to stay it needs to be transformed from a front line idea to a back line idea. Say, resources going down rush lanes to provide passive benefits such as a slightly lowered timer, faster grenade/c4 acquisition, base floodlights. Small benefits which provides the base for a background meta game for people who don't find the front line as compelling as the backline.

Sancs are often decried as slowing down the game and that's been gotten around but there was the idea of sanc raids which would have acted as an end game objective. If the objective is to create a goal for players to work towards, this might be something to look at.

phungus · 2013-06-24, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

The system doesn't make sense to me. In the real future the material and resources used would be the same to create the vehicles (I always think of these things like future versions of 3d printers), and I don't see what gameplay advantage it has to separate resources into air, armor, and inf. In my opinion there should be two simple resources "Resource" and "Tech".

For selfish reasons I like the system. I can fly my ESF till I run out of resources, then find a spot on the map to roll a sundee to and attack to get air resources, or I can spawn a MAX at some nicely defendable location (like a tower) and get resources. Basically the current system allows me to game things by always having something that makes me more powerful (either an ESF or a MAX).

My main problem with the current resource system is that it leaves the individual player very powerless. The biggest determining factor in resource gain is population, pure and simple. Being in an undermanned faction leaves you screwed, and there is not a damn thing you can do about it. Well I can, I just fourth faction and join the winning side so I can keep my ESF in the air without needing to die less then once an hour, but for many that's not an option. I think implementing something like my suggestion here in the official forums: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...ctions.136641/ would help by making the player feel more empowered. Ultimately I think resources should be mostly based on player actions; shooting down an enemy ESF should net you 30 air resources for instance.

Resource acquisition is extremely passive, just in general. You don't intuitively connect territory control and resource gain, it's just an abstract in terms of gameplay. Suggestions like the AI controlled ANT (I assume this is some sort of AI controlled miner, I never played PS1) could make things much more interesting. Active mining structures and NPCs could also allow for raiding and resource stealing - options that would be great for undermanned factions as well as improve the meta, though something like that may be too much of a work sink to implement; you guys are developers with profit in mind, not dreamers.

Qwan · 2013-06-24, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

I bought a boost for XP, I didn't care about Resources. I still don't care about the resources. The whole system should be overhauled, and looks like it Will be overhauled.

Yeah, +1

Im with you on this one, All I buy is the 7 day xp boost, never concerned myself with resouces. If I run out I run out, Id rather have more certs coming in faster then resources.

Yeah, +1

Calista · 2013-06-24, 12:40 PM

The very basic problem of this game is the perpetual 3 way. It is unrewarding and uninspiring. To include yet another mechanism (resources) to perpetuate it is just furthering it's demise. However, if it is SOE's direction to support MLG then this doesn't really matter does it? Let's just instance up a platoon v platoon on some battle island and see who wins.

Nihil · 2013-06-24, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

Better idea:

Get rid of all the resources and just use linked benefits. PS1 didn't need resources.

There are too many chokepoints for equipment. Timers, resources, ressources (what ever those are) and benefits and locations. If you got rid of the silly "everyone can pull everything" thing, you could remove one or more of those choke points.

We don't want disposable vehicles, right? That's the whole point of resources and timers. We don't need both. The timer reduction was a kludge to give vehicle guys something to buy with the poorly thought out cert system.

Scrap the cert system. Start over and make it based on BR. Scrap the class system while you're at it.

The resource system gives winners momentum and losers inertia. Without sanctuaries or working warpgates (which again, were fine in PS1), if you lose your TWO tanks... you're done as a tank driver. Now, go lose your two fighters. Now you're down to a few maxes, grenades and mines. Once you're out of that it's time to go to another continent or continue to be farmed by the other empires who are collect resources faster than they can spend them.

Hire me. i'll work for minimum wage and give you better ideas than, "let's make people who love flying aircraft be unable to be in aircraft after they lose a few, EL OH EL".

GeoGnome · 2013-06-24, 01:17 PM

And all your doing is ignoring the Point of what I'm saying, to argue disconnected things. If it was a polish multi-national it wouldn't make any bloody difference, The issue is that it's holding back the development, and that no one cares.

They have removed items from the store in the past, because there was no point in having them: Single use camos, anyone?

Keeping the resource boost is something no one cares about, no one sees a point in, and everyone says should be done, so that any changes to the resource system are meaningful, and result in a more balanced game. The reason everyone is buying the bloody boost, is so that they have the XP, the resources were completely worthless... and still Are completely worthless.

Originally Posted by omega four

Have you ever worked for a Japanese multinational corporation? I have. I know better than most about their thought processes when it comes to corporate hierarchy and decisions based on cost-benefit analyses.

SOE reports to Sony. SOE is beholden to Sony, who is in turn beholden to its shareholders. That means both companies live quarter to quarter on financial earnings reports.

Sony, and in turn SOE, are profit-driven companies that will do whatever it takes to make money. You can believe that SOE will make decisions based on what's fair and right for its gamers. But I know better.

I also know that many PS2 gamers don't realize that they're being farmed by SOE. And even if they did (like myself), they really don't care so long as they feel they're getting their money's worth.

Calista · 2013-06-24, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nihil

Better idea:

Get rid of all the resources and just use linked benefits. PS1 didn't need resources.

There are too many chokepoints for equipment. Timers, resources, ressources (what ever those are) and benefits and locations. If you got rid of the silly "everyone can pull everything" thing, you could remove one or more of those choke points.

We don't want disposable vehicles, right? That's the whole point of resources and timers. We don't need both. The timer reduction was a kludge to give vehicle guys something to buy with the poorly thought out cert system.

Scrap the cert system. Start over and make it based on BR. Scrap the class system while you're at it.

The resource system gives winners momentum and losers inertia. Without sanctuaries or working warpgates (which again, were fine in PS1), if you lose your TWO tanks... you're done as a tank driver. Now, go lose your two fighters. Now you're down to a few maxes, grenades and mines. Once you're out of that it's time to go to another continent or continue to be farmed by the other empires who are collect resources faster than they can spend them.

Hire me. i'll work for minimum wage and give you better ideas than, "let's make people who love flying aircraft be unable to be in aircraft after they lose a few, EL OH EL".

Works for me.

Crator · 2013-06-24, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nihil

Better idea:

Get rid of all the resources and just use linked benefits. PS1 didn't need resources.

There are too many chokepoints for equipment. Timers, resources, ressources (what ever those are) and benefits and locations. If you got rid of the silly "everyone can pull everything" thing, you could remove one or more of those choke points.

We don't want disposable vehicles, right? That's the whole point of resources and timers. We don't need both. The timer reduction was a kludge to give vehicle guys something to buy with the poorly thought out cert system.

Scrap the cert system. Start over and make it based on BR. Scrap the class system while you're at it.

The resource system gives winners momentum and losers inertia. Without sanctuaries or working warpgates (which again, were fine in PS1), if you lose your TWO tanks... you're done as a tank driver. Now, go lose your two fighters. Now you're down to a few maxes, grenades and mines. Once you're out of that it's time to go to another continent or continue to be farmed by the other empires who are collect resources faster than they can spend them.

Hire me. i'll work for minimum wage and give you better ideas than, "let's make people who love flying aircraft be unable to be in aircraft after they lose a few, EL OH EL".

+1 on that, AMEN!

diLLa · 2013-06-24, 03:04 PM

I wouldn't say it's pay to win. It might be on an individual level, but in this game the win condition is faction-wide. Assuming that the amount of subs on all the 3 factions is pretty much even, then it's balanced out, making it not pay to win.

basti · 2013-06-24, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nihil

Better idea:

Get rid of all the resources and just use linked benefits. PS1 didn't need resources.

There are too many chokepoints for equipment. Timers, resources, ressources (what ever those are) and benefits and locations. If you got rid of the silly "everyone can pull everything" thing, you could remove one or more of those choke points.

We don't want disposable vehicles, right? That's the whole point of resources and timers. We don't need both. The timer reduction was a kludge to give vehicle guys something to buy with the poorly thought out cert system.

Scrap the cert system. Start over and make it based on BR. Scrap the class system while you're at it.

The resource system gives winners momentum and losers inertia. Without sanctuaries or working warpgates (which again, were fine in PS1), if you lose your TWO tanks... you're done as a tank driver. Now, go lose your two fighters. Now you're down to a few maxes, grenades and mines. Once you're out of that it's time to go to another continent or continue to be farmed by the other empires who are collect resources faster than they can spend them.

Hire me. i'll work for minimum wage and give you better ideas than, "let's make people who love flying aircraft be unable to be in aircraft after they lose a few, EL OH EL".

Thats why i want ressources to be a faction wide thing for vehicles.

You personally shouldnt run out of them, but there should be a limit how much your empire can pull. Not at the same time, but in total, to make it impossible for yorur empire to constantly spam tanks.

Guess i just gonna post that stuff up once i have it written down fully.

Dougnifico · 2013-06-25, 12:06 AM

Ok. I see the point of an empire wide pool, but it does hurt the players. If you take from an empire wide pool and you screw up, people get pissed, then they blame noobs for ruining their empire, etc. You should have a personal resource pool, but it can be a fraction of your empire total. The important thing is that it is only your's and consequence free for burning it because you suck.

As for getting rid of resource boosts, I'm in. I'm an auraxium member with an alpha boost. If they said I would get +150% XP instead of +100% XP and +100% resource, then hell ya! Where do I sign up? I'll take certs over resources any day of the week.

psijaka · 2013-06-25, 12:18 AM

I've taken a break for a week or so and I'm kind of shocked by the resource increase for a MAX, up from 100 to 350. The same as a Galaxy!

And I do agree with Basti; resource boosts DO cross the blurred line into P2W territory.

OCNSethy · 2013-06-25, 01:43 AM

I'm an auraxium member and have what little remains on my Heroic boost, so XP and resources where not an issue, so I thought.

Then we got warpgated.

I could pull one MBT OR one MAX and that was it. I went for the MBT in an attempt to break out with some team mates. After my MBT was nuked... no more tanks for Sethy. I had no more resources... sad panda

Not so P2W in my eyes