Biolab got butchered (PTS) - Page 7

Blynd · 2013-10-27, 06:33 AM

OK if they want to use these transporters but why are they so far away ??

ChipMHazard · 2013-10-27, 06:58 AM

Only reason I can think of is that they want defenders to spend more time getting back into the fight, in order to give attackers more time after each kill.
If that's the case then I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning and in either case I most certainly do not agree with the execution. Like Murda suggested, if SOE wants a longer delay between defenders spawning in then they could up the spawn time in the Bio Lab, if it's feasible to have seperate spawn timers for different bases/facilities, or otherwise tweak it in some other manner.
How they are going about it with this change is just going to frustrate the defenders. Going up flights of stairs to the back of the upper floor just to take a teleporter that leads to the vehicle bay, which in turn leads to another teleporter, that then finally leads to the spawn exit building.
Only positive thing is that you no longer have to run out into gunfire in order to access the vehicle bay, but they could done it in a far less frustrating way.

Carbon Copied · 2013-10-27, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Badjuju

-snip-

So you don't see these changes as swinging the pendulum of defenders farm over to the extreme of attackers farm? I agree that defense of a base shouldn't rely on you spawning on the objective but team play and layout; but that's precisely the problem there's no layers to "falling back" or flow progression in either the current form or this so just highlights the sloppy "it'll do" arena design. They could save themselves a lot of time by just stacking some crates and calling it the bio lab.

The arrows aren't dramatic they just look like they shouldn't be there - you have to tell people where to go to get out of the start area; how dumb is that? This stuff should be intuitively apparent the moment you appear. Things like objectives and points that control the flow and progression of a facility should be marked with the "help" icons. Regardless of what they use now in the modern military thankfully we're not limited to the confines of reality and creative flair in a computer game.

Credit to Mrkwatz on reddit:

Spoof · 2013-10-27, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez

So don't hate on the arrows.

In the movie Escape From New York, Kurt Russell has the option to "follow the yellow line for immediate termination." Kurt gets multiple choices

and clearly the floor markings fulfill a purpose.

If this bio-lab were a movie, the narrative would be "follow the yellow arrows because... because... look, don't question, just follow the arrows and eventually you'll get to where we should have spawned you in the first place..."

I don't hate on the arrows, infact I agree with everyone regarding their use in a proper base layout, with multiple goals. But these arrows are nothing more than a crutch that expose the flaws in this 'spawn walk' fiasco.

Shamrock · 2013-10-27, 10:03 AM

I think there is a lot of knee jerk reaction over these changes, which are still provisional at this stage. The only things i see that need changing is the removal of the run through the vehicle bay due to the diffuser camping scenario, and the overly long run back, increasing the spawn timer would have achieved the same effect without all the elongation of the route.

Natir · 2013-10-27, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

May I suggest that people calm down a bit. If we don't stay constructive with our criticism then chances are that SOE probably won't listen/read our feedback or at least not take it all that seriously. No reason to go all internet on this

If a developer cannot take the heat for a bad idea of theirs, then they shouldn't be in game design. In game design, you will eventually get heat for what you do and you need to be able to take it when it comes at you; especially if it is a terrible idea. Every once in a while there will be a bad design choice and its not like game designers shit gold every time they have a new idea. Some are bad, some are good, and others just boggle the mind.

The idea for the new spawn mechanics is just plain out dumb. Anyone who plays the game will say that it is a dumb idea. Even the people on this forum seem to collectively dislike the idea. So what if some are more vocal about it. If a developer wants as much interactions with their player base as SOE does, they should expect there will be negative feedback.

Here is the thing, seeing all the negative feedback about the biolab, why don't they offer up some sort of an explanation somewhere about why they chose that design idea and what they liked about it. To just silently change a core mechanic of the ability to spawn and get back into a fight is huge. Especially one that in general, is a bad idea and left players wondering if it will even be implemented or not. It takes all of a few minutes for a designer to post something on why they wanted that new mechanic. I believe that is the main problem right now, no one really knows why they implemented it and whether it will stay. Until SOE decides to make a post on it, it will have people worried, especially people who love a good biolab farm. This new change will literally destroy any chances of a biolab farm.

ChipMHazard · 2013-10-27, 03:00 PM

It's not about whether or not the feedback is negative, but how constructive it is.

Natir · 2013-10-27, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

It's not about whether or not the feedback is negative, but how constructive it is.

Feedback doesn't have to be constructive. One can offer suggestions but at the same time, no one is required to pander to SOE. If they will only listen to you if you are constructive, well, then, their game will die even quicker. I say let it happen. If they refuse to even read negative feedback, then I just laugh. That is what this whole biolab spawn change is, completely negative. No one asked for it, no one wanted it, it is just a joke. Show me where people wanted that spawn change.

ChipMHazard · 2013-10-27, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Natir

Feedback doesn't have to be constructive. One can offer suggestions but at the same time, no one is required to pander to SOE. If they will only listen to you if you are constructive, well, then, their game will die even quicker. I say let it happen. If they refuse to even read negative feedback, then I just laugh. That is what this whole biolab spawn change is, completely negative. No one asked for it, no one wanted it, it is just a joke. Show me where people wanted that spawn change.

It's a damn good idea if you want the devs to actually pay attention and not just disregard you as irrelevant. It's still not about pandering to anyone. One can offer critiscm without resorting to insults, extreme demands, overly exaggerated arguments etc. (As examples) They will and have listened to very emotional feedback in the past, like the implants. It's not a good idea in general to get emotional when giving feedback though, imo. But there are of course times when it just can't be helped:P (Just so there's no confusion regarding this, it's perfectly fine to state that a certain concept/change etc. is totally daft)
And again this is not about SOE not wanting to listen or read negative feedback and it doesn't matter how many times you write that, that is somehow the case. It still won't be true.
It's not so much what you say/write but how you do it.

I don't agree that all the changes are negative, and I have seen/heard people complain about how easy it was to camp attackers, lack of ground cover and how easy it was to camp defenders inside the spawn room (The last thing is something they haven't done anything noticeable about)

Crator · 2013-10-27, 05:14 PM

Well I played for a little while just now. I do like the new barriers around the shield rooms inside the base! Less camping at them now!

There were times when we were getting camped down below at the spawn room teleporter. The main thing I don't like about that is you can't tell if it is being camped unless you go through. If camped you will die instantly. But, if you know it is you can spawn at the connecting friendly base and teleport into the base or get a vehicle and attack the enemy that is killing you at the bottom of the base. I think the devs are trying to get people to use vehicles more at a biolab. That's what it feels like... I did get the feeling that the layout helps to give a progressive attack and less of a camping session...

Illtempered · 2013-10-27, 05:45 PM

On the test today the first thing TR did when VS took Allatum was a mass GSD attack with Sunderers and Harassers. VS had about double their pop so it didn't work for very long, but with even pops it'll be ugly...

Jax Blake · 2013-10-27, 07:02 PM

Natir is actually addressing one of the biggest problems I have which is the complete lack of response by SOE developers about this change. We can get hourly updates on Higby's drinking contest but days after this pretty big change and nothing but a random tweet from TRay who is on the art team? Is this really how a company treats the consumers who have stuck by this company through a year of almost no new serious content? How hard is it for the people who made this decision to come on here or reddit or twitter or anything not their official forums since they hate it so much and address their users who obviously have serious issues with some of their game design decisions?

If the new time to get back into the base is 30 seconds and the base capture time is 2:15 or so if all points are held then what happens if on your first push you wipe and have to make this new run all the way back? That 30 seconds only applies if you face no resistance on the way back but we all know that won't be the case anymore. There WILL be hostiles in the bottom of the biolab and if that shield generator is down you will have more than GSD vehicles standing in your way. I still don't understand those of you who are saying the sub base will now play a part because almost every time I see a force of any size attacking a bio lab they also have air above pounding the pads and just flying around in the general area. You think some NUC or TGWW lib teams won't be waiting for you as you spawn from that sub base and try to make it to a teleporter? Do people think the attackers won't have infil darts up and know as soon as you make a move from the teleporter if not already have one of your last remaining spawns camped? If you're trying to tell me that the bottom won't be camped and that the sub base won't be camped then we're not talking about planetside as it's meant to be played with coordinated assaults but the mindless zerg wandering from base to base getting all that good capture xp.

Some of the other changes on the inside are nice but what does it matter when the fight is decided underneath the biolab in the vehicle spawn or during the thirty second respawn. There is nothing wrong with one of the base types in this game favoring the defenders or even heavily favoring the defenders. I'm sick and tired of having to deal with all the other bases where you have to run a hundred meters to a capture point or a shorter run across a completely open space, or on esamir with two full squads of light assaults on the stupidly high walls shooting down at me. Leave the biolabs alone and focus on getting us new content, put all of these base and level design guys to work on Hossin, battle islands, or the amerish revamp but this thing here this biolab, unlike others here I refuse to sugar coat, this new biolab is just bad, bad, bad, all very bad.

typhaon · 2013-10-27, 10:50 PM

I'm with you. So, so tired of just redesigned bases. It's not making the game more fun, for me.

Natir · 2013-10-27, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

It's a damn good idea if you want the devs to actually pay attention and not just disregard you as irrelevant. It's still not about pandering to anyone. One can offer critiscm without resorting to insults, extreme demands, overly exaggerated arguments etc. (As examples) They will and have listened to very emotional feedback in the past, like the implants. It's not a good idea in general to get emotional when giving feedback though, imo. But there are of course times when it just can't be helped:P (Just so there's no confusion regarding this, it's perfectly fine to state that a certain concept/change etc. is totally daft)
And again this is not about SOE not wanting to listen or read negative feedback and it doesn't matter how many times you write that, that is somehow the case. It still won't be true.
It's not so much what you say/write but how you do it.

I don't agree that all the changes are negative, and I have seen/heard people complain about how easy it was to camp attackers, lack of ground cover and how easy it was to camp defenders inside the spawn room (The last thing is something they haven't done anything noticeable about)

To start out, I said the only bad thing about the biolab change is the new spawn shit. That is plain and simply a bad idea. The rest are fine and have been needed for a while. But the fact that it is over a year out and we are still tweaking bases amazes me. I remember in an interview where Clegg said he designed the biolabs based on what looked good. Yeah... When I heard that interview and those words come out of Clegg's mouth, I was almost shocked that your sole purpose for wanting to design a base is all about what looks good rather than was works best for defenders/attackers. Clearly that concept worked and why bases are still continuously getting tweaked nonstop.

SOE is about one of the only companies who post on reddit, PSU, and twitter almost begging feedback from their playerbase. Literally, I see posts every week about "what do you guys think of this?" and "Do you guys think this is good?" They have to realize, by now, that not all feedback will be constructive or positive or "phrased" how they want it. Especially when you open yourself up to that many people wanting feedback. People also have a certain level of expectation from designers and when they implement something that just doesn't make sense, I think it is fine for the community, be it large or small, to voice that negativity. There comes a point where your designers should know what they should be implementing and shouldn't need to always go to the community for feedback.

For the longest time you couldn't find ANY information outside of RPG style patch notes on their forums. They have slowly been getting better but the amount they post on Twitter, PSU, Reddit, etc, greatly outweigh that of their forums. Their own forums. If this all comes down to "negativity," then they really should be in the fluffy bear making business because game design might be too hardcore for them.

capiqu · 2013-10-27, 11:54 PM

I feel there is too much base redesign. Leave the new designs for the new continents Now one of the reasons we fought so much for the test server was to try out new ideas off the live server. So don't panic. Use the the test server and anything you like or do not like give SOE feedback on.