AGN: Community Clash Recording TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW - Page 7

Rumblepit · 2013-09-27, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shortwave

Ladies and Gentlemen, a break in your internet argument here please.

NON PAID SPOKESMAN ALERT: I used to be in Mercs but had to take a break from the game when I was attacked by a horse on my farm and lost the use of my right hand. Just saying in the mindset of transparency, they booted me about a month or so ago I think for non activity.

BACK TO THE POST

I see this thread spiraling out of control, kind of like the plot line of The Little Mermaid 2

You had a princess and a prince, trying to protect their daughter from the second cousin twice removed of the villain from the first movie. Everyone is all up in each others face, you have a retarded seagull and McFish sandwich teaming up with an angry crab to do side quests, plenty of musical numbers and a thrilling conclusion brought to a conclusion in classic Disney straight to movie style in where the daughter is finally allowed to make her own decision about her future and she decides to become a mermaid , like her mother before her.

I see two sides of an argument here yelling screaming etc about a game.

Two sides, the game

Folks, the game here, is the daughter from the Little Mermaid. We all want the best for our daughter (IE the game hence we support a clearly fashion challenged Smedly at SOE Live) but instead of helping the game progress, IE have FUN at the game, we are here arguing back and forth.

You all take a step back from the edge of the ocean here and start enjoying this game again.

And now back to your regularly scheduled troll v troll argument.

lmao your to f ing funny man.....

ArcFault · 2013-09-27, 01:59 AM

I'm not even sure where to begin on this considering a huge swath of TGWW pilots are on the QRY Roster.

If there's any issue that is unclear, it is the fault of the rules, not the outfits who followed them in good faith. Torin sought clarification of a vague rule and received an official clarification from RC_Torkz. With the clarification from the ruling body, which supersedes arbitrary interpretations of the original rule and vague handwaving at eHonor by Mr Rumblepit, TGWW rightfully and properly moved forward.

As one of the Reddit r/planetside moderators, my VS alt, which I haven't used in months is, of course, in the TEST outfit. When I did sign into my VS alt, I was flying around in a Scythe with the members of TGWW (We can get notarized statements if necessary). Is it not understandable why I would not want to formally leave TEST even though I didn't regularly play with them? However, for the sake of formality when Dreadnaut (who has been a proud member of QRY for a long time now) asked that I formally join TGWW before the event to minimize any confusion, I did so. There is absolutely nothing improper about that and falls within the framework of the rules and the subsequent clarification.

TGWW/NNG acted in good faith and any perceived impropriety is just that, perceived. If there is any issue that is/was unclear then the Rules should be adjusted going forward to be more concise.
Mr Rolfski is essentially arguing for a lower skill cap in a competitive(!) mode, in a game with an already, by design, low individual skill cap - the nonsensicality of which is truly mind blowing.
Regarding Air being the OP Solo Deciding Factor on Nexus with 48v48+ - I wish that a particular outfit that geared themselves out specifically to counter vehicles still played and was interested in these MLG/Competitive events to dismiss this notion.
MLG Highlight Reel lol

Dreadnaut · 2013-09-27, 02:50 AM

Jaamaw came to me and asked, "We're doing the Community Clash and it's going to be 48 VS 48 on the Nexus and I'd like your air crew to join us. I have 36 and need a full squad of your guys . This will be a fun scrim". Jaamaw and I have been working together for months on Mattherson in an unofficial capacity (usually via in game command chat/voice) and even shared some good laughs at SOE Live. He actually got accused of hacking twice while gunning for me on SOE's PC's.

I was excited to be involved because as the leader of a small air cav outfit I knew we couldn't compete with such small numbers on our own only from the air. I never once read any rules about the event until I was linked them during a TS chat with the leaders of all four outfits and Torkz. I just knew Jaamaw wanted me and my guys to support NNG. We support NNG regularly on Mattherson and it's a blast. I've never even watched one of the CC events but had heard good things Deringer, Torkz, and others were doing.

The instant I was asked I knew the exact crew of guys I wanted to bring. I knew the Liberator crews down to their exact load outs and exactly who my scythe pilots would be and who would be doing the talking. No one would using A2A missiles which I asked to be included in the rules but we could not all agree on that. C'est la vie. Any pilot worth his salt knows A2A missiles are zero skill and lame.

Most of my outfit plays multiple factions. Some are dedicated VS like Aarth and some play NC/TR also. In fact, a lot of them played TR before they went to NC. One reason we play multiple factions is to play AGAINST each other. You don't get better by playing scrubs so when we fight against our own guys we're flying against some of the best. I'm scared of my own guys in the air and playing against them makes me better.

I was told late that we all had to be in the same outfit and most were but a few weren't so we had to add them late. Again I never read the rules and figured I would be told anything I needed to know in our meeting on TS. This 'rule' was not brought up in the TS meeting.

We've been discussing our 'team' a lot since the MLG talk has ramped up and many of us have been flying together since launch on multiple factions. When VS is way over pop we go play TR/NC, and the other way around.

As far as the scrim goes, most of TGWW hadn't even seen the nexus till the night of the match yet MERC/TxR had already scrim'd on that map. To say we were at a disadvantage is an understatement.

This was a scrim, not an MLG match, and to see this whining is absolutely ridiculous. Someone could have come to me directly as the leader of TGWW but instead you take up your issue on a forum which is childish.

It is my fault and no one else's for not reading the rule set ahead of time. We showed up completely blind on a map most had never seen to fight a fun scrim. Had I known about the 'outfit only' rule I would have invited the ones without outfit tags right away. There are several guys in TGWW that aren't MLG ready and are still working on their flying skills. The guys you saw are my crew and that's the simple fact. If we fight in a scrim again you're going to see the same guys except this time we'll actually be prepared. If you think that scrim was dominated by my air crew, wait till it happens again and we're actually prepared.

We didn't have a single practice, we hadn't seen the map, we've never once had a scrim anywhere, at any time, and our entire strategy was in one tiny graphic that I made to show where people should stand in the warpgate. We didn't even know the names of the bases so we numbered them the same as your keypad. You'd hear guys on TS yelling, "GO TO BASE 7!!"

Wanna know our secret tactic? "Kill SNAFU/NAPOOPAN/MAGNIFISCENT first, don't over commit, listen to Nate, don't talk too much." Imagine how different it would be if we actually had time to practice...or better yet, had actually seen the map.

I sincerely apologize personally to MERC/TxR for not having my 'crew' all with outfit tags before I was even asked to be involved in the event. Had I known ahead of time there would be no confusion. I had a couple guys that didn't even have the test server installed till the day of the event. My gunner had zero resources so if we died he couldn't pull us another Liberator and didn't have any consumables. 2 of my guys had uninstalled PS2 until such time as we needed them for an event. They're so sick of Strikers and bad frames they'd rather play other games until the ESF update and optimization pass.

So let's end the whining now. The team you saw was my Competitive TGWW Air Crew and that's a fact.

Look forward to doing it again and showing people what we're really capable of.

* Please excuse any typo's as I did this from my mobile device *

Jax Blake · 2013-09-27, 04:07 AM

Thank you for clarifying the point from the TGWW point of view. If any of this came off as an excuse as to why we didn’t win the community clash then the message has been lost in translation since the overwhelming answer from the people in my outfit is that we lost the air battle and thus lost the match. Three or four people don’t win or lose an air battle when that many planes and random fire is involved no matter the weapon systems used.

The issue that I and a few others would like to hear directly from the Community Clash organizers about now pertains to what does a full time outfit member mean? Is it someone who regularly plays IN your outfit or someone who regularly plays WITH your outfit? The answer to that question can then brought up on the .CC forums which is where is where competitive questions at whatever level (MLG/Scrim/Etc.,) are better suited for discussion.

retrogreq · 2013-09-27, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

Outfit members only .... Im still unclear on how this can be misunderstood

I have heard it all in this thread now.

What players from other outfits and factions????
They been in our outfit for along time!!!
We only added them 24 hrs ago to avoid drama!!!
We are in different outfits but we have been playing with them for 9 months!!!!
We misunderstood the rules!!!

Did I forget any?

Read the rules again, and think about what the honor system is.

As for RCCC ...Its easy to make rules,but upholding them is the hard part.If you plan to continue these events you need to be able to manage them. As of now the rules mean nothing to these people. like they said its not mlg ,and this kind of thing will happen over and over again until it is addressed.

Torin is right, you aren't even worth it any more.

Also, if this were MLG, this would be a non-issue. Rosters are generally locked 24 hours before a match, and they don't give a shit who you add/remove, or what clan or outfit they are in, as long as they wear the proper tags when the match starts, and they were added to the roster at least 24 hours prior. (source, 3 years of competition with TWL, Cevo, and MLG.)

Violin · 2013-09-27, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by ArcFault

MLG Highlight Reel lol

Anyone that can 1v1 debris and come out on top is MLG ready.

Hamma · 2013-09-27, 09:32 AM

The recording will be up a bit later today.

We strive to do our best with the rules for Community Clash but sadly, it remains a work in progress and things tend to fluctuate. Add to that the often unexpected conditions that occur on the test server.

As far as rosters and players, as the organizers there is not a ton we can do about this sort of thing. It's a community event, meant to be fun and we have no real need or reason to verify players beyond what their in game characters names are. We will have a little more control over it with a Private Server but in the end we have to rely on the outfits to police themselves and play honorably.

That being said, I thought it was a great matchup and TGWW has proven their chops in the air.

In the meantime let's try and keep things civil and remember this is for fun, there's no cashola involved or rewards for the winners.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-09-27, 10:40 AM

It would seem that the results of this community clash are tainted. Maybe there should be a rematch.

GraniteRok · 2013-09-27, 11:14 AM

IMO, the air lock down by the VS made the match pretty boring in several places. Not sure exactly why the TR were unable to effectively counter; maybe resource limitation, maybe they were being taken out out of camera view. Many ground attempts by the TR were quickly eliminated by VS air. Boots on the ground and all out infantry fights make a better show. Again, my opinion and just a spectator.

retrogreq · 2013-09-27, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

It would seem that the results of this community clash are tainted. Maybe there should be a rematch.

While we don't think anything is tainted, TGWWs would be more than happy to oblige.

retrogreq · 2013-09-27, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by GraniteRok

IMO, the air lock down by the VS made the match pretty boring in several places. Not sure exactly why the TR were unable to effectively counter; maybe resource limitation, maybe they were being taken out out of camera view. Many ground attempts by the TR were quickly eliminated by VS air. Boots on the ground and all out infantry fights make a better show. Again, my opinion and just a spectator.

No offense, but that was the fault of the camera crew. One of them admitted in the stream he didn't have a clue about air, and didn't know how to film it properly...one of the other broadcasters jokingly said to follow the explosions. Simple solution would be to have a new cameraman that knows how the air game works, and can effectively film that aspect of it. I assure you, it is VERY entertaining. (check youtube for any of our TGWW vids, or any NUC, QRY, Ironfist, ETC vids).

kidriot · 2013-09-27, 11:50 AM

I'm gonna give my thoughts on the issue (for whatever they're worth). Bear in mind I have no control over the rules of Community Clash. I only provide articles and reviews on the subject.

To expect one person - in this case Torkz - to properly scout out outfits that are going to participate in the CC, every week, to ensure outfits are fielding primary members is absurd. Community Clash runs on a minimum of resources. One person writes the rules and one person enforces them during a match. Stack community stuff (that's done for free and willingly!), family, work and even play time, not to mention other responsibilities on top of outfit scouting is expecting a lot from 1-2 people. It requires a team of people to stay on top of this and I don't even think MLG will be fielding that team to ensure the stability of the matches.

The primary issue I'm seeing with the people TGWW fielded is they weren't viewed as primary characters in the outfit. They're a group of friends who bounce factions and outfits because they all play similar styles instead of being one outfit who focuses on one faction. You can't blame them if they want to fight people of their caliber in the air for creating such a situation on Mattherson, but I can see where problems might arise. The only plausible way this could or could not be acceptable is if there was an official ruling by MLG (governing body) and SOE (designer). This won't happen for a very long time.

Community Clash is a community run effort by very few people to ensure a quality, stable and entertaining platform for outfits to run competitive matches. Competitive in this sense of the word simply means that - competition. There are no rewards for winning a Community Clash. You could even say that the matches aren't 100% fair because spawn beacons and squad deploy aren't working and I'd agree with you, but we're not the makers of the game only players. So what options do we have? Should we postpone all further Comm Clash matches until this gets worked out? No, because we could be waiting a long time and the arguments presented in this thread are proof that people want to compete. People want to fight outfit vs outfit, not because there's future glory or money or prizes to be won, but because we're competitive players by nature and we like the thrill of the challenge.

If I were in TGWW's shoes I'd have done the same thing. Bring my 12 best friends that not only play with us on a consistent basis, but play against us when we want to feel challenged in the air. They could have simply invited the "ringers" to the outfit a few days before and it would qualify those people as outfit members, even if they were a low BR. Can every outfit do this? Yes. Should every outfit do this? No. The only reason it worked in TGWW's favor is because they've all worked together before. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision. TGWW has stated they knew exactly who to bring to the match which gives the impression that some experience and preparation went into the CC. If it had been cross server people joining, say for example, FC decides to fight for NNG then I'd have to call those players ringers in the true sense.

Some outfits run a strict policy regarding membership. Your character in the outfit must be your primary character. We ran Recursion like that when we started to get more recruits and NUC runs like that. Do Recursion and NUC have players in other factions? Yes, but they're not their primaries. Some outfits are run like communities where it's acceptable to have members in various outfits and the outfit runs like a hangout - where people can play there when they wish. TGWW seems to run like that and there's nothing wrong with it. You can't expect all outfits to have the same structure. If you all agree that all outfits shouldn't be forced to run the same way then you'd have to agree that what TGWW wasn't wrong.

What prevents outfits from simply getting the best players on the server to fight under one banner for a CC? Simple: teamwork and cohesion aren't guaranteed simply because you have the top killers on a server. In TGWW's case of bringing in friends it worked, because they have the experience of playing together, in other cases it would be an absolute disaster.

The last CC wasn't tainted at all. Mistakes were made on both sides and TGWW capitalized on the TR outfits not protecting their most precious resource in The Nexus: their Sunderers. How you go about protecting the Sunderers and ensuring you have forward spawns is up to the individual outfits. The TR got outplayed in the air and paid for it dearly. It was a close game till the later part of the second half when VS began to run away with it. It was due to the freedom allowed to the Liberators because TR wasn't able to fight them in the sky. If you argue those points then you're arguing something completely different than the primary issue. The primary issue being discussed is, "What makes an outfit an outfit?"

The answers for that question vary and in varying allow for more expectations and potential for dynamic play on both live servers and especially in The Nexus where there's no outside influence.

People get testy when they lose. They sometimes get bitter and that's ok, but it shouldn't devolve into the shit flinging I've read in these forums.

Let me ask you guys this, if TR had won do you think the arguments posted in this thread would even exist? Go back to the drawing board, learn what you can from this match and move forward. That's what winners do every time they lose.

TorinPS · 2013-09-27, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by kidriot

Let me ask you guys this, if TR had won do you think the arguments posted in this thread would even exist? Go back to the drawing board, learn what you can from this match and move forward. That's what winners do every time they lose.

Nope. In fact I think I can speak for most of us (TGWW) when I say that I'm looking forward to the outfit that can beat us handily in the air. I know NUC has a lot of good Liberators (pilots and gunners) and some good ESF pilots. I am very interested to see how we will stack up in a 48v48.

We've been longing for some serious competition for a while now. We end up playing cross-faction against each other simply for a challenge, because when we roll together in public PS2, it's just a joke. I'm not trying to brag, but we throw too much skill and experience, and the average players just don't deal with it. 'Air zerg' is what it feels like, and half of us get bored, log out of VS, and log onto TR or NC to be competition.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is here. We fielded the guys we've been expecting to field for months now. We won a scrimmage. There will be many others. We didn't go around bragging about anything, flaunt anything. A very select few in MERC tried to rub our win in the mud, because they are sore losers. I don't blame all of MERC. I can understand legitimately the complaints. I can comprehend how it might appear sketchy. But to us, we just played with the guys we have played with for a great many months. Everything was on the up and up. I was looking forward to some interesting discourse/analysis on the topic, then this shit.

C'est la vie and all, I just hope we, as a community, can get past this petty sore loser bickering shit. We'll gladly go up against any outfit in Planetside 2, hopefully next time people won't be bitching when we field the same 15 guys.

Hamma · 2013-09-27, 12:20 PM

Recording is live.

EVILPIG · 2013-09-27, 12:42 PM

Stacking is stacking. It doesn't matter if outfits are bringing in players because they play together often. If it's to become the norm to bring in whoever you need, then these matches should not be advertised as "X outfit vs Y outfit" any longer, as they are not true representations of such.