hacking - Page 7

HollandHup · 2003-01-03, 12:13 AM

I only read the first page and thought I'd reply to this. Maybe it's already said in the other 5 pages, but i really can't be bothered to do that at the moment

Originally posted by Dio
I don't see how making something much more interactive and challenging is making it less fun. I never said it should take 10mins but i'd rather spend 1min doing some actual hacking thingy like connecting wires or something than just standing around for the same minute watching a bar go down.

The reasen why you don't have to do anything but push a button is because it's NOT YOU that's hacking, but YOUR CHAR... and the change of success or speed is bassed on HIS SKILL... not YOUR SKILL

sorry for caps if you find them irritating, just trying to be more clear.

�io · 2003-01-03, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by HollandHup
bassed on HIS SKILL... not YOUR SKILL

So why is piloting, driving, grunt work,etc not based on my character's skills as well?

HollandHup · 2003-01-03, 12:21 AM

lol aren't you a fast replier?

Because you have no skill in hacking in real life (maybe) and certainly you don't have skill in hacking consoles in bases on a planet that doesn't exist in the future.

YOU also don't have skill in flying an airplane, except know up from down and right from left :P Your CHAR does have the skill to keep the airplane airborne... Get the point?

And people are waiting for you to hack it, but if you are too tired to do it right, people will get annoyed and blame you. You were suppost to be their hacker, but you didn't know it would take 5 hours into the night to take that base. This one isn't actually my point, but it also counts i guess.

�io · 2003-01-03, 12:29 AM

My char isn't doing the flying i am, i dunno how to fly. My char isn't doing the shooting i am, i dunno how to aim a lasher. So why should my char suddenly do 1 action (hacking) when he doesn't do the rest (aim,fly,drive,etc).

HollandHup · 2003-01-03, 12:42 AM

there will be must more to flying a Galaxy then pressing 4 directional buttons in the cockpit! You char knows how to handle all the buttons and flashing lights and all. And your char knows how to turn the plane without crashing into the ground 10 seconds later. And your char does all that and all you have to do is press the right directional button. Yes use your IMAGINATION lol.

Besides, why would there be certs if you only need 4 buttons to fly a galaxy perfectly?

If you to actually hack something, there will in reality be more to it then connect 2 wires and some people will be faster then other and then again there will be people who know nothing about hacking

Also if you really want to hack something, then flying should also be "simulator-like" and not just giving the general directions.

I hope you get it now.

if not:

-YOU also don't know how to reload a boltdriver, your CHAR does
-YOU also don't know how to fire a tak, your CHAR does
-YOU also don't know how to reload a tank, heck you don't even know what a tank looks like on the inside, then how on earth are YOU able to drive it?

No really, you should see it as you tell your CHAR what to do in these things and he'll use HIS skill to do them and not bother you with the details.

please get the point, i'm bad at explaining oviously

HollandHup · 2003-01-03, 12:48 AM

you tell him to "hack console" and he does it

you tell him to "fly galaxy to the right" and he does it

you tell him to "drive in a lightning" and he doesn't cause he doesn't know how to do that (no cert)

you tell him to "learn how to drive a lightning" and he does that

Why doesn't he drive the lightning? there is nothing to it, it's like driving a buggy isn't it? the same direction buttons... he doesn't do it cause he can't handle it

Duritz · 2003-01-03, 01:02 AM

http://www.planetside-universe.com/a...p?articleId=26 there it is. Dio is right.

Dio, I will try to reword the ones that don't make sense right now. (I don't know why I said some of those)

Yeah but the odds of a hacker hacking a base more than 2-3 times in 1 hour are slim. Taking a base won't be easy, you need a lot of manpower to break the defense (well hopefully), it won't be as simple as hopping into a tank or finding people that are wounded.

Personally, I think each Hacker will get at least a 4 runs toward the console in an hour. If not, then having less good hackers is ever greater of a downfall.

I don't really get your point here. You said yourself "it requires skill" that's what i'm advocating here, that the hacking cert should require skill just like a piloting cert or a gun cert. (also just fyi you most likely won't have to wait too long for a new tank)

I prolly should have put this quote after one of the others about the skill, and I REALLY didnt explain it. My point was that people that require skill are far and few between because the game makes them that way. If you have only a few tanks and only a few hackers (because people need skill to become them and that is a limiter on numbers) then you will always have shortages of vital personnel and equipment. And you need those vital supplies to take over bases (and defend them).

Ah here again you guys focus on the part leading up to the hacking, this has nothing to do with what i'm saying. The hacking cert is my concern and the fact you can get in the enemy base isn't part of the cert, the only thing the cert does affect is the act of hacking which is why i'm sayign the actual act of hacking should require some skill like any other cert.

You're right. I really didn't think about your point when i said this. I guess it was just a general anti-complication argument.

"Also, with more skill involved you have to deal with more lamers that say they know how to hack, just to piss you off or to get a chance at doing it."

(add to end) because they actually suck and want to learn, but they can't get a break with a commander that can actually get them into a base because the commander wants someone that they know is good.

" Maybe eventually we will weed [the lamers] out, but then where is the pool of [want to learn to become good] hackers we had? Gone, because they never got a chance to hack and that is because [all of the commanders] only wanted the uber hackers."

Hope that makes more sense.

(when i reread it I really had to think cause i really didn't explain myself very well the first time)

Taking over a base shouldn't be easy. Wouldn't having less hackers just make it more fun??? Which do you prefer having a group of 30 people who all hack which will inturn make hacking the base easy or having 3-4 hackers and having to cover and protect those few hackers while they to their job and make communication and teamwork a key item required to take over a base.

Well, personally I think (read hope

) that the devs have made base capture already difficult enough that it won't be easy. If anything, that idea would make itt harder. Plus, If it were too difficult to take bases but maybe once a week, I'm sure that I wouldn't keep playing. Hopefully, most of the base capture is based around the actual battle to control it and not who has the best hacker. Also, if base capture is easy wouldn't that also make it more fun? If you end up trading a base with an opponent many times before you finally fully captured it, wouldn't you feel more pride for fianlly fighting them off? Either way that would still be fun, so I think that is probably a moot point.

Well first i would like to think the spirit of PS is teamwork, in which case making the hacker role important and precious would only help that spirit come across. Second i never said the hacking part would have to be extremly hard or complicated to discourage new comers, just something skill based so John doe can do it in the usual 1-2mins but Hamma who has been hacking for 5 months now can do it in 30-40secs.

Well the hacker role is still important without skill; if you don't have one, you're screwed (attack or defense). But I don't see a need for it to be precious. No other role will be. There will be plenty of everything else, except maybe commanders. There will even be a lot of Galaxy pilots, I think. No, it need not be hard to discourage people, but they will not be able to show that they are competent because people will want hackers that they know are better. So John Doe can do it in 1 min, thats pretty good, but will he get the chance? Maybe some commanders are more open, bu most will be keeping off lamers and miss the good ones by accident.

And Dio, Warborn while I have been lurking for the last 3 or so weeks I have seen that you two and just a few others actually present their ideas in a clearminded, unhostile, and intelligent manner. I believe that you guys honestly contribute the most to these forums.

Oh, HollandHup you shoulda stopped before your last one the others were pretty good points.

Warborn · 2003-01-03, 01:27 AM

Also, to add something, not everyone will be able to Hack. Actually I'd imagine very few people will bother getting up to advanced Hacking when they could be spending those cert points on other, more fruitful certs (like more piloting/weapon certs). So it's not like everyone in an attack group will use a Hacking cert well. I imagine that if you were to take an average Outfit, they'd likely have one or two people with Advanced Hacking out of ten. You really don't need a lot of people with the ability to Hack, as it's not an incredibly useful skill apart for base capturing and possibly some other stuff, so not many will bother with it.

Moral of the story: Not everyone will be able to Hack a base. Not everyone will be able to Revive their friends. Not everyone will be a Galaxy pilot. People will find a niche and gravitate toward it in their cert spending, and given that most players are more focused on killing people than actually doing the deed of base capturing themselves, I imagine Hacking in any character apart from an Infiltration-suit wearing guy who makes it his job to get inside and raise hell while/prior to an attack is going on outside will be rare. Why take a skill that chances are someone else will have (thus making yours redundant) when you could be firing a new gun or driving a new vehicle instead?

Warborn · 2003-01-03, 01:29 AM

And Dio, Warborn while I have been lurking for the last 3 or so weeks I have seen that you two and just a few others actually present their ideas in a clearminded, unhostile, and intelligent manner. I believe that you guys honestly contribute the most to these forums.

Well, in that case I should say that you've proven to be a much welcome addition to the mix. It is good to have more people able to express themselves in a clear and concise manner -- especially when they have insightful things to say.

�io · 2003-01-03, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by Duritz
Personally, I think each Hacker will get at least a 4 runs toward the console in an hour. If not, then having less good hackers is ever greater of a downfall.

I hope for far less, my idea is kinda like my view on sniperism (is that a word ?

) it should be about 1 very hard shot but that shot rewards. I'd rather see a team work together and communicate to execute a well thought out plan 1 time with a few hackers that they need to cover and protect than see a gang just attack over and over until 1 of the many hackers they have succeds.

I prolly should have put this quote after one of the others about the skill, and I REALLY didnt explain it. My point was that people that require skill are far and few between because the game makes them that way. If you have only a few tanks and only a few hackers (because people need skill to become them and that is a limiter on numbers) then you will always have shortages of vital personnel and equipment. And you need those vital supplies to take over bases (and defend them).

Just because you aren't as good as the next guy doesn't make you useless. My idea of hacking isn't to make new comers fail but rather make them take longer so that those of us who have been praticing hacking for 6 months are actually better than the new guy on the block who just started playing 3 days ago. Same goes for tank gunners and drivers, if you have been praticing that role for months you should be better than the new kid. It just makes sense.

Also, with more skill involved you have to deal with more lamers that say they know how to hack, just to piss you off or to get a chance at doing it.

(add to end) because they actually suck and want to learn, but they can't get a break with a commander that can actually get them into a base because the commander wants someone that they know is good.

" Maybe eventually we will weed [the lamers] out, but then where is the pool of [want to learn to become good] hackers we had? Gone, because they never got a chance to hack and that is because [all of the commanders] only wanted the uber hackers.

Yeah that makes sense now.

But the thing is that argument is again something that would rule out flying, gunning and driving as well since a commander will obviously take the better pilot first and the "lamer" later (or never).

Hopefully, most of the base capture is based around the actual battle to control it and not who has the best hacker.

Which is why expanding the hacker's role to my idea (making the hacking cert skill based) would be a good thing, otherwise the hacker has pretty much the same value as a nade or a medkit. He's just a tool that the grunts need once they have brusted through the defense, easily replaceable and not very special in any way.

Also, if base capture is easy wouldn't that also make it more fun? If you end up trading a base with an opponent many times before you finally fully captured it, wouldn't you feel more pride for fianlly fighting them off? Either way that would still be fun, so I think that is probably a moot point.

Well this depends, if we just capped the base sure trading with the other empire for the first few times is great, but if the 1st assault we can easily capture the base no it's not fun. Capturing a base should be damn hard. I mean put yourself on the defender's side, would you like to cap a base and set up Ds for hours if not days only to get it capped by another empire in a 10min assault? I would hope that base capping is much like in RL, the op would take hours and maybe even a few days if the defense is well planned and executed.(for the more populated bases, obviously if there is 20 peeps in the base it should fall in a few mins)

Well the hacker role is still important without skill; if you don't have one, you're screwed (attack or defense). But I don't see a need for it to be precious.

Then why do it? Why would i want to do a job where i say "Yeah i hacked the base!!" and someone beside simply says "Meh, if not you someone else would have done it just the same.". Where's the pride, where's the sense of achievement?

No other role will be. There will be plenty of everything else, except maybe commanders. There will even be a lot of Galaxy pilots, I think. No, it need not be hard to discourage people, but they will not be able to show that they are competent because people will want hackers that they know are better. So John Doe can do it in 1 min, thats pretty good, but will he get the chance? Maybe some commanders are more open, bu most will be keeping off lamers and miss the good ones by accident.

Yes there will be plenty of everything but it doesn't mean that the new comer won't get to play either. Sure they will be commander's who only want the best but this is true even is the hacking cert isn't skill based but instead of wanting the fast hacker he'll simply want the guy with adv.hacking who knows how to shoot people good.

The fun part of any game (IMO) is learning and improving as you play. I mean think how fun Diablo would be if you started at level 500 with a Bow that does 999999 damage. I would just like to see so room for improvement in the hacking area, otherwise i know i won't pick it up since even if i've been doing it for months any new kid can do it as fast and as good as me. (again i'm talkign about the act of hacking not the act of infiltrating)

Anyhoo i'll try to cut back on the posts, i have a feeling this won't end, you like it how it is and i would liked it to be skill based, we won't change each other minds.

And now i need some

Duritz · 2003-01-03, 02:35 AM

You know what Dio, I think I've got an idea that everyone might agree on.

How about every time someone hacks something they get better at it. I mean, not actual skill but number of times. If I've been hacking doors for 6 months but have never hacked a base, I could practically walk up to a door and it opens and a base would go only a little faster. Lets make it a point system. You might get 1 point for a door, 10 points for a buggy, 25 points for a tank, 35 for hacking a vehicle console and 50 points for hacking a base. Then people who have capped bases repeatedly get faster and faster at it; it is skill based because you have to do it many times and get good at it. Then whoever has been doing it longer and has worked hard at being a great hacker could easily cap a base or swipe a tank, and people who haven't can still do it but take longer. It's almost the same as yours but you don't have to do a puzzle, and people can't just be a good puzzle solver. Also, lamers might not be willing to spend the time getting good at it to trick people.

It has flaws, and obviously the numbers would need to be tweaked, but it might work. It also would be easy to code, but it would take time to test out.

edit: and i mean press a button instead of solving a puzzle.

Feynn · 2003-01-03, 02:50 AM

Duritz, that idea seems pretty good to me. You'd just have to figure out all the possible ways it could be abused and then you're set. A couple of obvious things is you don't want people to sneak into an enemy base and spend all day hacking some remote door to raise points, likewise you probably only want to reward successful hacks in case there is a way to start the hack, interrupt, and start again.

But to get back to our horse, I just want to give another analogy of why I think hacking should be skill or even skill-point based.
Say you have a bunch of people who want to work at a small game design company. If you consider what jobs these people would want, there would be designer, artist, programmer, tester, the guy who pays the phone bill every month... One of those doesn't belong on the list. While the phone bill has got to get paid, it's not a "role" that defines a person's job.

The FAQ leads me to believe it is the intent of the designers to make the hacker a "role" that people can fulfill, as opposed to a responsibility someone has to have, and that's something I'd like to see as well.

Serbitar · 2003-01-03, 08:14 AM

BTW: I wouldnt call a medic skilled. It just doesnt take that much skill to maintain a low profile and heal others (which in my opinion is NOT difficult, in a sense that if you are the 1337 g33k you wont perform much better as the n00b because there is not that much skill potential in the job). Its just that the position is important but others could do is as well.

On the other side I would call a good scout skilled, becasue not being shot and get as much information as possible IS difficult.

Then I wouldnt call a hacker skilled that just runs along with the team and has the hack kit with him. Anybody could do it. A better hacking system could change that.
HACKING is important, it should be represented by an important action ingame. Not just pressing a button.

Just consider: If a n00b performs as good in a task as 1337 g33k does, it doesnt take much skill.

It is MY opinion that I want to see people who are good at the TASK of hacking and proud of it. Not just good soldiers who also have a hacking kit with them.

Blitzkrieg · 2003-01-03, 12:15 PM

And it keeps going, and going, and going...

�io · 2003-01-03, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Serbitar
It is MY opinion that I want to see people who are good at the TASK of hacking and proud of it. Not just good soldiers who also have a hacking kit with them.

Agreed.

And Duritz that's a pretty good mid-point between the skill-based or non-skill-based hackign cert and i would like that kind of system better than the current but i still think it would be sweet to require some skill to do the act of hacking.