Kill Streaks

[Tool]

Originally Posted by Kietharr

There needs to be an option to turn them off, otherwise I don't care about kill streaks or achievements so long as they don't give you any real advantage. I don't think you should get an OS for getting 50 kills in a row, pretty sure that's now how the military works IRL either.

Below this line is a long somewhat unrelated rant, read at your own risk.
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Lordreaver, keep in mind that that is what makes ACTIVISION and CALL OF DUTY money. This is PLANETSIDE. The fanbase does not necessarily have that much of an overlap. Many people who play Call of Duty like it because of the theme, they like the 'modern warfare' fighting in the desert aesthetic, they feel that it makes the game cool or realistic. A game with laser guns or magic spells won't necessarily appeal to them. I think SOE would be smarter to try to work to reclaim the playerbase of Planetside and the playerbases of similar sci-fi games.

There's this strange idea in the industry that niche games are inherently less profitable than broader games. This simply is not true whatsoever. Take for example, DAO verses DA2. DAO was much more of a niche game than DA2. It took more after classic DND style gameplay, though it wasn't as oldschool as something like Icewind Dale, it was definitely a more traditional, niche fantasy RPG.

DA2 was homogenized and simplified to appeal to the masses. It sold less than half the number of copies that DAO did in the first 10 weeks. It's MUCH easier to convince a Fantasy RPG fan to play a Fantasy RPG game than it is to convince a 'modern warfare' FPS fan to play a Fantasy RPG game. That simple fact keeps niche games in a much healthier spot than people seem to realize. Hell, ever played the Witcher? I think that game was about as niche as you could possibly get and it was still pretty profitable.

If I wanted to play Call of Duty I'd go buy it. I don't think all games should try to mimic them or use Call of Duty mechanics as an industry standard just because more people play it. Hell, World of Warcraft is the most popular MMO in the world, should Planetside try to mimic their mechanics because 'that's obviously what players want'?

Also keep in mind that COD hasn't even outsold Ape Escape yet, should SOE consider adding an ape capturing minigame to draw in the huge Ape Escape fanbase? If they did would you still defend it as them trying to make the game better overall?

Dispite the bit of Logic Leaping you have in your post, your point is understandable. Planetside was unique in a few ways but at it's core is an FPS. In todays FPS games it's apparent what players gravitate to as far as gameplay is concerned.

Nine years ago those trends were not as defined nor technology close to what it is today. Much of what made Planetside what it was, was not necessarily due to a solid design choice but rather a comprimise. It's clear the PS1 team was unable to do much of what they wanted to accomplish, which in many ways differed more than what PS1 ended up being than what they aim to create in PS2.

Some games do things right while doing other things poorly. Without looking at those things they did right, learning from them, then building upon them in your own way no progress will be made.

Planetside must succeed, not only for Sony but for the potential of the MMOFPS genre as a whole. It needs to innovate, show the possibilities, draw in players from many games who can safely say that this is the definitive MMO to play.

[Raymac]

Look, Planetside 2 isn't going to be be Call of Duty or Battlefield, but it will incorporate some of their features not all of their features. It's that simple and shouldn't be that controversial. In fact, I think SOE would be extremely foolish if they tried to make a huge mmofps without looking at what fps games are doing currently.

[Kietharr]

Another example of corporate failure applicable to this situation is the failure of Wal-Mart in Germany. Wal-Mart looked at the German market and said 'well, our model is PERFECT in America! These people will LOVE it!' and proceeded to open and close their stores within a few years, taking a billion dollar loss.

They overlooked the fundamental fact that GERMANS are not AMERICANS. I think DA2 made a similar mistake by assuming that by making the game easier and more friendly to FPS gamers they'd get FPS gamers into the market. They utterly failed and managed to piss off their original fanbase in the process which is going to cost thousands of sales of DA3 because COD players are generally not Fantasy RPG players.

I'm not saying that Planetside 2 should be nothing more than a prettier version of Planetside, but SOE needs to take a good hard look at what they're doing before they do it with this sort of thing. Blindly lunging at new mechanics because 'the other guys are doing it with their customers and it works' is a recipe for disaster, not success.

[Tool]

Originally Posted by Kietharr

Another example of corporate failure applicable to this situation is the failure of Wal-Mart in Germany. Wal-Mart looked at the German market and said 'well, our model is PERFECT in America! These people will LOVE it!' and proceeded to open and close their stores within a few years, taking a billion dollar loss.

They overlooked the fundamental fact that GERMANS are not AMERICANS. I think DA2 made a similar mistake by assuming that by making the game easier and more friendly to FPS gamers they'd get FPS gamers into the market. They utterly failed and managed to piss off their original fanbase in the process which is going to cost thousands of sales of DA3 because COD players are generally not Fantasy RPG players.

I'm not saying that Planetside 2 should be nothing more than a prettier version of Planetside, but SOE needs to take a good hard look at what they're doing before they do it with this sort of thing. Blindly lunging at new mechanics because 'the other guys are doing it with their customers and it works' is a recipe for disaster, not success.

Do you feel that's what they're doing? "Blindly lunging at new mechanics?" Trust me, I do understand your criticism and in a lot of ways you have very valid points. However little is known aside from SOEs intention of drawing more FPS players in. How far the difference between PS1 and PS2 is yet to be fully understood, crying foul now seems like your jumping the gun a bit does it not?

[Kietharr]

Originally Posted by Tool

Do you feel that's what they're doing? "Blindly lunging at new mechanics?" Trust me, I do understand your criticism and in a lot of ways you have very valid points. However little is known aside from SOEs intention of drawing more FPS players in. How far the difference between PS1 and PS2 is yet to be fully understood, crying foul now seems like your jumping the gun a bit does it not?

SOE has a history of doing this. See SWG's CU which made the game more like WoW, dozens of patches and expansions targeted at making EQ2 more like WoW, ect. Then see the populations of said games collapsing, the changes were made in response to falling populations but instead of stemming the loss they exacerbated it.

[Tool]

Originally Posted by Kietharr

SOE has a history of doing this. See SWG's CU which made the game more like WoW, dozens of patches and expansions targeted at making EQ2 more like WoW, ect. Then see the populations of said games collapsing, the changes were made in response to falling populations but instead of stemming the loss they exacerbated it.

You do have me there, they have made a lot of mistakes in the past, it would seem silly not to assume past mistakes can't be repeated.

At this point it's mostly an argument about preferences in gameplay. Some people feel strongly one way or another. While others just hope to see PS2 succeed either way.

I try to look at the announced changes in an optomistic light and to me much of it is very logical from both a buisness perspective and gameplay perspective. I would not have said the same thing about the CU or NGE if they were explained and tested before release however.

We'll have to wait for more information I guess to make really sound judgments on how things are or should be.

[Rbstr]

Well, to be honest, SWG's combat system was terribly broken when I was playing...which I believe was prior to the CU. You simply had to have doctor buffs to even wear worthwhile armour. Mind/action/hp was cool, but the way abilities used them ending up killing yourself.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Kietharr

There needs to be an option to turn them off, otherwise I don't care about kill streaks or achievements so long as they don't give you any real advantage. I don't think you should get an OS for getting 50 kills in a row, pretty sure that's now how the military works IRL either.

Higby confirmed that killstreaks are just pats on the back and don't reward you with anything like an OS.

I recommend reading this post: http://www.planetside-universe.com/f...19&postcount=1

[Tool]

Originally Posted by Rbstr

Well, to be honest, SWG's combat system was terribly broken when I was playing...which I believe was prior to the CU. You simply had to have doctor buffs to even wear worthwhile armour. Mind/action/hp was cool, but the way abilities used them ending up killing yourself.

Oh absolutely, Pre-CU gameplay in SWG wasn't without its faults but one cannot ignore the outcry which dwarfed the release of BFRs, that came with the NGE release.
The failure to work with very players who were voicing their opinions left ripples through SOE and it's games. A whole team has been deticated to creating their own server featuring that pre-CU gameplay, from the ground up mind you, for a few years now. Something like that should speak volumes.

It was that mistake of doing what SOE thought was best and failing; not only the referenced example but others, although perhaps less impacting, have taken place.

So there is justification for having doubt, even with a new title.

[Kietharr]

Originally Posted by Rbstr

Well, to be honest, SWG's combat system was terribly broken when I was playing...which I believe was prior to the CU. You simply had to have doctor buffs to even wear worthwhile armour. Mind/action/hp was cool, but the way abilities used them ending up killing yourself.

SWG's combat was no gem but doctor buffs were pretty much the root cause of nearly all of the inherent imbalances in it. What they should've done was toned those down and toned player damage down a bit, instead they revamped the entire system in what may have been the overreaction of the decade.

Aside from craptacular combat, pre CU SWG was probably the best sandbox MMO ever made. The crafting, the skill system, both were the best I've ever had the pleasure of using. But unfortunately they're both gone now.

Also the entertainment system was revolutionary but the only game that actually picked up on that (and improved on it to boot) was LOTRO. I still don't quite understand why no other major MMORPG since has done it, it was surprisingly popular even for how simplistic it was.

[headcrab13]

Originally Posted by basti

I dont want killstreaks at all, as they just add up to the "I DONT WANT TO DIE" crap. Often enough you will end up in a stalemate that you can only break out of by pushing hard. But people dont do that if they then loose their kill streaks.

You could also balance that out by rewarding courageous players who charge into a hail of gunfire and manage to take a few enemies with them. That way you could either get a bonus from a string of kills out in the open (say knifing a line of snipers on a ridge) or get a bonus from rushing a red-hot tower door and surviving for a certain amount of time or pushing the enemy back.

Let's be honest though, we've all had those days where you run solo through a tower and gun down ten people in a row, and it'd be nice to get some kind of recognition or bonus for it.

-HC13

[Headrattle]

Originally Posted by Kietharr

SOE has a history of doing this. See SWG's CU which made the game more like WoW, dozens of patches and expansions targeted at making EQ2 more like WoW, ect. Then see the populations of said games collapsing, the changes were made in response to falling populations but instead of stemming the loss they exacerbated it.

Not only SOE but much of the MMOFPS world seems to do it. One of the reasons that most new MMORPGs fail is because they try to emulate WoW too much. The problem is that WoW already does WoW and dragging players away from WoW to play a different game that has many of the same game mechanics just doesn't seem to work. You need to be different. Having Planetside 2 contain a lot of factors that seemingly make CoD successful will make for an unsuccessful game. COD already has a place. You need to make something better. And that is the tricky part.

IMO: Killstreaks should have an Xp bonus and maybe a little "hey good job" but that is it.

[Hamma]

Which is what they are going to be!

[Tybo]

Originally Posted by 2coolforu

Being rewarded for maintaining a K/D is the number one way to force people to exploit glitches, camp, use the most horrible tactics and generally create a bad play environment. Not only that but it's a stupid 'rich get richer' promotion, good players get even better and the bad players are put at a huge disadvantage, just look at modern warfare 2 and how many people camp with nothing but explosives and how the kills can suddenly become hugely inbalanced by one lucky killstreak and the hordes of people that disconnect due to an AC-130.

Killstreaks are the No:1 way to alienate the new and less skilled.

Bingo.

[megamold]

Originally Posted by Tybo

Bingo.

its been confirmed that there will be no advantage to be had with killstreaks except for a little xp and a "pat on the back" i dont see how this can in any way give ppl incentive to be tards, killstreaks or not everyone still counts how many kills they have made ( holy warmonger 5 kills in a row im AWESOME ) exept now you will get a message that says how much you rock and give you a small treat for it

i would also like to point out that there are 2 types of killstreaks , call of duty style or unreal tournament style.
the difference being that in cod every kill you make counts toward your killstreak as long as you survive
in UT its only a double kill if you kill the 2nd guy within 2 seconds of the previous kill
a UT style killstreak system would mean that these streaks are for the assault type players or for the "cannon fodder" ( and lets just admit that every army needs cannon fodder )
and i dont see a problem in rewarding players who go "balls to the walls" insane into the courtyard so that the others can stream in, with a little extra xp and a "hey good job man !"

and what i take out of the q&a is that you will be rewarded for teamwork more then for killstreaks with commanders setting missions for other players wich reward with xp and whatnot
more xp from capture when in squads etc etc ...
these are all ways to get players to be active in squads and tactics and the war as a whole
i also dont think that killstreaks will be one of the key selling point for the game ( hey buy this game it has killstreaks just like in cod !!! ) i think they will have much more interesting things to attract ppl with, just off the top of my head : hey buy this game it has massive battles with thousands of players at once !

and unless i'm mistaken the real world army does pretty much the same thing , dang you killed 50 enemy's and showed complete bravery and skill in holding that line , here have the medal of honor

edit: i know the moh is only awarded very rarely but you get my point