Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return - Page 8

Wahooo · 2013-08-20, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez

I just don't get the fuzz, some of you sound like you get all your kills from hiding in some dark corner with a sniper rifle and never, ever leaving lol.
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No, not all my kills but when I want to do that sort of thing it seems adding a direct and significant counter to the ability when it isn't as easy to do as some people would like to think gets my feathers ruffled.

There is a reason LA's have sub-par long range weapons and the sniper class is the cloaker. Getting to a place to snipe is risky a lot of the time. You have to be a bit inventive if you want a really good spot you can stay hidden. It takes time and effort to find and get to these spots, and for that to be given up on the sake of it being somehow too hard to figure out where you got killed from? I don't like it.

ketarakh · 2013-08-20, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

Um... pausing to look around for what killed you and from where and paying attention to the big bright tracers from every weapon IS part of playing the game. Giving a kill-cam that does that for you is a mechanism to play for you.

It's ok when you see those tracers and other stuff but what about situations when you simply don't? When enemy takes stealthy approach, kills you in less than 1 sec and from the position where you can't see him.

Ertwin · 2013-08-20, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by ketarakh

It's ok when you see those tracers and other stuff but what about situations when you simply don't? When enemy takes stealthy approach, kills you in less than 1 sec and from the position where you can't see him.

You'd still get the hit indicator telling you where the hit came from, followed by the kill screen telling you what killed you.

Taramafor · 2013-08-20, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ertwin

You'd still get the hit indicator telling you where the hit came from, followed by the kill screen telling you what killed you.

I get killed by headless guys sometimes. Honestly, the death screen forgets heads.

Still see the weapon though. Kind of an indication to change the way you move if it's a sniper (I swear, zig zagging randomly in the open has saved my neck so many times).

The problem with kill cam is this. It won't just show a direction, it will also point out the exact height. So by looking at the screen after getting killed and you see a small yet tall platform, you already know the exact position of that sniper. Something that should be noticed by the player looking in the direction they got hit from, which gives the sniper that crucial time to get in some more shots. I already get shot in the back by other infiltrators that have made an effort to do that. In that time I get around 3-5 kills. With a kill cam, I'd be lucky to get 2 (especially since I'm NOT a pro). Person gets shot. Person sees me on screen. Even in the distance an infiltrator on a vantage point is noticable unless cloaked. What kill cam would do is FORCE snipers to cloak or move after every kill or be seen right of the bat. When a heavy (or any other class for that matter) can get a good 3 in the same amount of time it takes for a sniper to kill one and relocate? Ask yourself which one would be "farming" more.

Also, enemy infiltrators will know where to snipe. Which of course leads to our infs sniping back. And then it's only infs sniping infs since their locations are (at least for the most part) always known.

Let me try to give an example of what we have now and what kill cam would do with the fewest words possible.

What we have now.

Hey Joe, I got sniped. In that general direction. Rage.
Yea, I see two vantage points. Guess I better scout them both out.

What kill cam would do.

Hey Joe, the center of the screen is pointing at that small hill over there.
Oh, he must be just behind it then. I'll flank him and kill him in the next 10 seconds.

Doesn't just affect infs either. Hit and run tactics at close range with any class will be ruined as well. Once you get killed the cam points in players direction. LA that had killed you on the ground is now shown to be on the roof because, guess what, he did EXACTLY what you want people to do. He MOVED and is now getting punished for it.

Baneblade · 2013-08-20, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez

I just don't get the fuzz, some of you sound like you get all your kills from hiding in some dark corner with a sniper rifle and never, ever leaving lol.

I spend 90% of my play time in my Vanguard. My Vanguard has the stealth module, I tend to flank or engage behind enemy lines, and I run AP 99% of the time. So yeah, I don't need even more ways for the enemy to decode my position.

Wahooo · 2013-08-20, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Taramafor

What we have now.

Hey Joe, I got sniped. In that general direction. Rage.
Yea, I see two vantage points. Guess I better scout them both out.

What kill cam would do.

Hey Joe, the center of the screen is pointing at that small hill over there.
Oh, he must be just behind it then. I'll flank him and kill him in the next 10 seconds.

Doesn't just affect infs either. Hit and run tactics at close range with any class will be ruined as well. Once you get killed the cam points in players direction. LA that had killed you on the ground is now shown to be on the roof because, guess what, he did EXACTLY what you want people to do. He MOVED and is now getting punished for it.

This is very similar to the argument I put out back in Alpha when the kill cam was proposed.
Now in regards to the argument at hand as it being a tool for newbs. Noob gets sniped kill cam shows some weird vantage point, noob respawns and looks around for that vantage point and sees a couple different possibilities but isn't sure where and says to himself "how does someone actually get up there?" and gets sniped while looking for the sniper in the wrong spot.
VET: Gets sniped, knows exactly where he was sniped from, from experience in the game combined with the kill cam and re-snipes the sniper or calls in buddy who is in a lib or a tank that wouldn't have thought about looking in that crevice.

People here saying kill cam is ok because it disrupts those who rely on all those cheap kill methods ... REALLY? And getting to take your revenge with the knowledge gained from something like a kill cam wouldn't be cheap?

Rolfski · 2013-08-20, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by almalino

I was newbie to PS2 at the beginning and was not unhappy being killed constantly and not having kill cam. IMHO, no to kill cam.
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Problem is that situation has become worse for new players than when you started 49 ranks ago and this gap in increasing by the month.
If you don't introduce mechanics to bridge the gap somewhat then this game is becoming a hardcore ghost town.

Originally Posted by Baneblade

Why? Why should the game reward your failure by punishing someone else's superior planning?

Superior experience you mean, that becomes increasingly difficult for newer players to overcome to a non-frustrating level as the game grows older, bigger and more complex.

Originally Posted by Ruffdog

Everyone and their dog raged about this back in March 2012 following the GDC reveal.

It got changed to what it is now and got universal backing.

Exactly what you said, many people were literally raging about it, instead of constructively discussing it. Lots of mindless "This is not COD/BF3!" arguments in that discussion. Also noticeable is that many rejected the kill-cam in that discussion because it was horribly implemented and didn't teach new players anything, which is true. You could hardly speak of a decent kill-cam in that reveal, it was incredibly rough around the edges.

And because it was badly implemented and unpopular back then doesn't mean you shouldn't re-evaluate it any more. That's just short-sighted. The state of the game has hanged drastically in the mean time.

Btw: One remark in that discussion stood out really for me. One guy said he liked the kill-cam in COD because it made dying a lot more fun. I can completely relate to that. Making dying a lot more fun in a game goes a long way of taking away a lot of the frustration. In this game dying is probably the worst experience of any shooter I've ever played.

Originally Posted by Angrytortoise

This isn't about being an extremist hardcore gamer people simply don't want a killcam feature because they feel it will take away from the game experience or/and hurt a playstyle they personally enjoy.

I was responding to an elitist argument here about "people lacking mental capability"

So unless you have defenders defending a non-relevant base (not able capture or something) and for some reason a bunch of enemies decide to go there too I don't see how "farming" can exist in PS2, and even less so how a Kill-Cam is in any way the solution to the root of a problem like that.

I suggest you wake up, there's an insane amount of non-objective driven mindless killing just for the sake of farming XP in this game and I already explained how a kill-cam could discourage that somewhat.

This is basically just you saying this is the play-style I enjoy and want more to be more prevalent and truth be told I've been spending most of my time in this game as a scythe or a heavy recently so I'm almost never in one spot for very long myself but the fact that this play-style is enjoyable to us doesn't mean that we should shove it down everyone else's throat.

Game design is about steering player behaviour and this is not the same as shoving anything in some ones throat: Players could still choose to stay immobile with a kill-cam either by using cover, stay concealed/don't engage or making kill-cam off a perk slot as has been suggested.

So your saying that stealth tools in planetside 2 need to be altered so they're less heavily impacted by kill-cams, and that players should just adapt their own strategies to work around this feature?...a lot of work for a feature that very few people seem to want implemented in the first place.

They're literally tons of ways to implement kill-cams in a game and make stealth play still viable and fun. This whole stigma of "kill-cams destroy stealth game" is just way too short sighted.

What your talking about has nothing to do with battlerank, your talking about player/fps experience and game knowledge, this has nothing to do with the in game ranking system aside from the fact that most players of high battle rank have played the game longer. You could have someone who has never played PS2 before log on to a BR100's account and play and get totally smoked by a BR1 who has played a bunch of counterstrike or something. So you're mistaken, the difference between a BR100 and a BR1 is probably about 20%, what you seem to be asking for is that player-skill only have about a 20% impact in who wins an engagement and yes, player-skill does make a much larger than 20% difference

Not sure what your point is. BR not 100% always being related to skill/experience is not the point. The point is that differences have become way bigger than the 20% this game was originally designed for: It's literally gearing out of control. Air play now inaccessible for most players because of elite pilots totally raping the sky is a good example of this.

The entire concept of having to invest to disable this feature puts you at a disadvantage, you've now invested in something someone else hasn't had to leaving the other person free to invest in something else, all for a feature that negatively effects you more than this other player based on your play-style.

That is how specialization works, you make choices. It's the same how slots work in a game.

What kill cam would do.

Hey Joe, the center of the screen is pointing at that small hill over there.
Oh, he must be just behind it then. I'll flank him and kill him in the next 10 seconds.

What kill cam would actually do is that the infiltrator would cloak towards a new camping spot that overlooks his old one so he can gun down any one stupid enough to come to his last location. It's called tactics.

Ertwin · 2013-08-20, 09:23 PM

A kill cam would also reduce the effectiveness of a small squad against a zerg. A couple of months back my squad leader was able to get a beacon on a really tall rock outcropping. Once we dropped in on it as engineers and heavies, we were able to stop a TR tank zerg without getting spotted for a good 5 minutes. The zerg had no idea where we were shooting from, but a couple of people were paying attention, and we got hit by light assaults.

That wasn't a loctation where we could "just relocate" A kill cam would have prevented that from working near instantly.

Taramafor · 2013-08-20, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

That is how specialization works, you make choices. It's the same how slots work in a game.

Once you add in a pure game mechanic that offers no realism whatsoever that someone has to waste certs or money on, the game WILL die.

Under NO circumstances must you pay to REMOVE something that you don't want. That IS shoving it down our throats.

I give up. You obviously don't care about the majority of players, vets and noobs alike. Most of which are obviously against it.

As for you killcam not showing where cover arguments stands, the cam will show the cover. Ergo, person is behind said cover.

You seem to think that kill cam can work if done in a certain way, but in all ways it shows the location of who killed you. Just because you and some other guy on another game found it fun to die with that doesn't mean others playing the same game do either.

As for sniping, I already said that not everyone is an efficient sniper. A noob will get 1-3 kills before dying as it is. With killcam, they'd be lucky to get 2. Now a pro sniper on the other hand can get a few more and rightly so. Getting a look around a battlefield might not be easy with them around, but it's perfectly doable as long as you use cover. If you see a trail coming from that hill the moment you poke your head out then you found the location. Not smart enough to keep eyes up on hills going though a pass before dying? Your fault. Not the snipers. Respawn and look around on the high ground.

I will NOT have spoon fed information and revealed locations in this game and if anything like that is ever implemented, I'll stop playing for sure. Because it's not THAT difficult to find out if you make the effort to look around and learn over time. Something I enjoy doing myself and I make every effort to perform recon when I can. If new players aren't willing to make that commitment, then frankly, they don't have the attention span to play the game. Or don't make time to play the game enough to learn from their mistakes.

Now if you can get a kill cam implemented that doesn't have a negative effect on the enemy, by all means, make it yourself and let people test run it. The only possible way a kill cam MIGHT work is a time delay before seeing it (The VR movie idea someone mentioned). Perhaps listing all possible deaths in the last hour and giving the player the option to watch it. That however would need more internet usage of which not everyone has to spare. Same goes for recording on this game too so unfortunately, not everyone can learn by watching how they play.

I can understand you want to give newer players a helping hand, but there's helping and just plain hand holding.

Angrytortoise · 2013-08-21, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I was responding to an elitist argument here about "people lacking mental capability"

Sorry I caught you out of context, it just seemed to be a theme from certain people in this thread that assumes people don't want a kill camera because they're elitist or a hardcore fps gamer which I wanted to reiterate is not the case, and that it's simply a feature which the majority people of many differing situations felt didn't add to the enjoyability or depth of the game or take it in a direction they found pleasing.

Also..
From what I gathered he wasn't trying to insult the new player base, he was implying that the people you are trying to represent with this argument do not encompass the entirety of the new player base, or even a large majority but instead consist of people of incompetence. (he's welcome to correct me if I interpreted that wrong)

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I suggest you wake up, there's an insane amount of non-objective driven mindless killing just for the sake of farming XP in this game and I already explained how a kill-cam could discourage that somewhat.

This has not been my experience. Sure you will have people push on places like that base below Regent Rock on the way to Peris Amp that people will end up pushing on even though it's not capturable now and again but that's more of a spill over from a major push and isn't a continuous grind fest forever, it usually tapers off as the main conflict moves on. Also it's not like these people are forever bound to spawn at that base and if they don't know any better because they're new players why would kill cams solve this? The much better solution would be to clarify the spawn system and make the objectives more apparent/easy to understand not to go and show them their killers screen every time they run out and die.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Not sure what your point is. BR not 100% always being related to skill/experience is not the point. The point is that differences have become way bigger than the 20% this game was originally designed for: It's literally gearing out of control. Air play now inaccessible for most players because of elite pilots totally raping the sky is a good example of this.

Firstly, my point was obvious, you had stated a BR100 was approx 200% more powerful than a BR1, I was stating and clarifying since you had failed to do so that Battle rank had absolutely nothing to do with you're argument aside from being a by-product of a fair amount of high skill players, and further clarifying that it was player skill's impact in the game and not cert points which you took issue with.

This alters the motivations of your entire argument for why kill cam should be implemented. It's the difference between saying kill camera's help players who don't play FPS's learn the game mechanics and saying kill camera's help players who don't play FPS's compete against people who spent hours and hours playing at it. Sony is pushing PS2 as a potential esport so implementing a feature with the intent to use it to lower the skill ceiling of the game is unlikely.

As far as the air game is concerned I agree that it's very unfriendly to new pilots and it's certainly amplified by the fact that it's a vehicle tree with a very high skill ceiling due to the high mobility/high damage/relatively fragile & unforgiving nature of aircraft..not to mention resource costs making it hard for new pilots to get the airtime they need to improve; but this is an issue which has been addressed by the devs so that more new pilots can spend a longer time flying, and not one which a kill cam is going to remedy.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

That is how specialization works, you make choices. It's the same how slots work in a game.

Here you completely missed the point of what I said. I already explained exactly why this was not simply specialization. You just told someone that their playstyle now also comes at the price of a suit slot. Someone who plays more aggressive and mobile now has a suit slot advantage over you because kill camera has less of a detrimental effect the way they play. No this is just you wanting to remove certain strategies/tactics/combat elements from the game because you don't like them.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

What kill cam would actually do is that the infiltrator would cloak towards a new camping spot that overlooks his old one so he can gun down any one stupid enough to come to his last location. It's called tactics.

No that's called metagame for kill cam, and you can have metagame (predicting enemy action) and deploy tactics of all manor without having a kill-camera to tell you where your enemy was when he shot you in the head.

Anyways feel I've more than said my piece on this subject, and bored or not this thread is getting kind of repetitive so I think I'll leave it with this..

While I feel that watching a failed engagement from the victors perspective can have positive impact on improving your play a kill camera watchable immediately, or shortly after dieing is not the right method of implementation and that it would cause more harm than good. The time it would take to implement this feature over the multitude of other feature's I feel this game would benefit from gives it extremely low priority compared to something like optimization, resource revamps, and other new content the dev team could be working on.

Baneblade · 2013-08-21, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Superior experience you mean, that becomes increasingly difficult for newer players to overcome to a non-frustrating level as the game grows older, bigger and more complex.

You do know that kill cam only makes it easier for vets, right? A newbie isn't even going to know what to do with the information.

I'd rather keep kill cam out and simply promote people developing situational awareness.

Sunrock · 2013-08-21, 05:53 AM

Do you really think that newbs are that retarded Rolfskis and that they will stay that noobish for more then a few hours? Yes sure there are maybe 1 in 1000 but do you really think we should change the game because of that 1 guy?

PredatorFour · 2013-08-21, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Do you really think that newbs are that retarded Rolfskis and that they will stay that noobish for more then a few hours? Yes sure there are maybe 1 in 1000 but do you really think we should change the game because of that 1 guy?

He is right! Also we were ALL noobs once .... was it that hard ???? really ???

No. It wasn't.

Wahooo · 2013-08-21, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I was responding to an elitist argument here about "people lacking mental capability".

IT WASN"T AN ELITIST ARGUMENT, YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING NEW PLAYERS LACK THE MENTAL ABILITY TO LEARN ON THEIR OWN.

I'm asking you if they are so brain dead as to need this "feature" is it really going to help them?

You have continued to avoid many of the arguments in this thread and go back to the points you consider emotional and biased. teh OMG! COD stuff has hardly been mentioned by anyone but you, yet you still think the only reason people don't want it is to hate on COD. As I said pages ago, I don't hate kill cam because of COD but part of what I don't like about COD is the kill cam.

Further, it seems more and more you don't want to admit this isn't about helping noobs. You say that, then go on to say how this is an anti farming or camping step. Buck up and understand a lot of people play games for the dangling carrot. Hell I know some guys I play games with the can't stand a game that doesn't have achievements and if they are playing a game with achievements they just whore those like it is the purpose of the game. People play for different reasons, and if someone wants to see how fast they can get auraxium kills on every weapon in the game there really is NOTHING WRONG with that. It isn't playing wrong, it doesn't hurt the game, infact it really has no effect on other players if you have an organized squad/platoon and doing what you want to do in game. Blaming others for your lack of fun isn't going to be fixed like this.

And again, vets and those with better awareness and FPS experience are going to get more out of this than new players, AND in fact those new players who do get a few kills are going to be at a BIGGER disadvantage against better players with a kill cam.

Most of the hardcore "farming" isn't really going to change. It happens in biolabs and places the kill cam isn't going to help, unless you are talking about AV turrets and sniping and in that case you are completely neutering those people which YOU might be alright with but should not happen.

TLDR;
1. Not wanting Kill Cam has nothing to do with COD rage.
2. Your reasoning seems thinly veiled on helping new players, where it is actually just more personal.
3. Vets and those who are more aware will benefit much more than new players, and probably to the new players demise. How does Killcam help new players break into the ESF game?
4. It really does nothing to stop farming where the REAL farms happen.

More to the point, you been around long enough I think a lot of us assumed you are not the noob you are talking about. I think I was wrong on that point. So please stop telling us how to play sniper when you have near zero experience with the class.

scufmark · 2013-08-21, 04:10 PM

I'm all down for Killcam, but I'd rather see it implemented as a "How you died from the enemies POV" sort of cam. You see there scope and them shoot you dead. That's about it.

A traditional killcam is a no go for me, I don't like the idea of someone seeing their enemy's position in any way really. As a player who has spent a good portion of his time as Inf, I have learned that people who go after Infiltrators often die in their attempt of revenge.

In regards to revenge, let it go. Because seriously, how many times have you tried hunting down that sniper, who is often behind their friendly lines, and you get mowed down? I mean, come on. Killcam is just a motive for people to enact revenge in my opinion. That's all I've ever noticed from it quite honestly.

Everyone has their own opinion, I think Killcam has some good and bad. But for me, I'd rather not see a traditional Killcam. It ruins the point of sniping. When I find my bush, and get all snuggled in, it's not my fault someone can't see me when they die. If they take the same route, they should expect the same outcome. They need to change tactics. Yes, I try to snipe, cloak and move. But sometimes, a spot is just so nice you don't think moving is worth it. That's when the counter-snipers start sending rounds down range and you book it.