Biolab got butchered (PTS)

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Natir

To start out, I said the only bad thing about the biolab change is the new spawn shit. That is plain and simply a bad idea. The rest are fine and have been needed for a while.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Natir

SOE is about one of the only companies who post on reddit, PSU, and twitter almost begging feedback from their playerbase. Literally, I see posts every week about "what do you guys think of this?" and "Do you guys think this is good?" They have to realize, by now, that not all feedback will be constructive or positive or "phrased" how they want it. Especially when you open yourself up to that many people wanting feedback. People also have a certain level of expectation from designers and when they implement something that just doesn't make sense, I think it is fine for the community, be it large or small, to voice that negativity.

They know there will be unconstuctive feedback. That does not give anyone a free pass to be unconstructive though.
It is completely fine and expected for a community to provide criticism and be negative towards concepts/changes that they deem damaging to the game. It's not fine if they do so in an unconstructive manner.

Originally Posted by Natir

There comes a point where your designers should know what they should be implementing and shouldn't need to always go to the community for feedback.

Perhaps, but until that time comes I appreciate the devs actually wanting feedback on their changes and giving us the opportunity to test and provide said feedback.

Originally Posted by Natir

For the longest time you couldn't find ANY information outside of RPG style patch notes on their forums. They have slowly been getting better but the amount they post on Twitter, PSU, Reddit, etc, greatly outweigh that of their forums. Their own forums. If this all comes down to "negativity," then they really should be in the fluffy bear making business because game design might be too hardcore for them.

It has little to do with negativity and more to do with how constructive people are on the official forum. As in there are far too many people there who are completely and utterly unconstructive when it comes to providing any kind of feedback and apparently it's better to troll than be rational. SOE are going to find the same negativity and critiscm on Reddit, just worded in a fashion that they can actually make use of.

Again you're completely missing the point.
It's not so much about what you write but how you write it. (And by you I mean any person)

[Taramafor]

I'm just going to remind everyone that this is in a test server. Where major things are being tested. So with that in mind, let's point out what works, what can be improved, and what just plain needs to go. Haven't tested this myself but from the sound of things, the long walk needs to go or offer some sort of incentive for the long trek (like height advantage or nearby vehicle terminals and places you can't get camped at).

Anyway, case in point, point out what works, what doesn't and the inbetweens. But let's give the devs a chance to change things the way we want them to be changed (which we can do now with this).

On the subject of arrows, do they really help? I mean, there's a mini map. And icons on the screen. And no sign posts stating which arrows lead where. If it was a case of color coding (blue arrows lead to spawn room, red to terminals, etc which are on huds anyway) then I could see a use for them. But so far I can only see a minor use for tunnels in amp and tech bases, and even then it's not hard to know you're going to turn without an arrow there and just by looking at the mini map, you should see where you're going and going to be.

[Natir]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

They know there will be unconstuctive feedback. That does not give anyone a free pass to be unconstructive though. It is completely fine and expected for a community to provide criticism and be negative towards concepts/changes that they deem damaging to the game. It's not fine if they do so in an unconstructive manner.

You are dictating how people should interact on the internet. You cannot. You want to talk about what is unconstructive? Reddit. Like what I said below, Reddit has actually done more damage than good to this game. Devs never get to see any negative feedback so they get a feeling they can do no wrong.

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

It has little to do with negativity and more to do with how constructive people are on the official forum. As in there are far too many people there who are completely and utterly unconstructive when it comes to providing any kind of feedback and apparently it's better to troll than be rational. SOE are going to find the same negativity and critiscm on Reddit, just worded in a fashion that they can actually make use of.

You most likely will not find that on Reddit. Since the subreddit for Planetside started, all you see are good ideas getting downvoted into oblivion, a place where you cannot even post quality content. Even if you have good constructive feedback, it doesn't matter because a bunch of people will just downvote what you wrote into oblivion. Reddit is by far the worst of the worst. You talk about anything negative towards VS, like how the ZOE is OP and you will get downvoted. Reddit is by far one of the worst communities and the moderators also help that nature. If that subreddit was moderated by SOE employees it might be completely different but you have people who blatantly biased running that site. You post constructive (negative) feedback about an idea, immediately downvoted. Anything that the SOE fanboys don't like gets downvoted. If people don't like specific people, they will get downvoted just because of who they are, regardless of what they talk about and how they talk about it.

Reddit is about on par with 4chan. By reddit, I mean the Planetside subreddit. When the ZOE came out and people were bitching left and right about how OP it was, people went to reddit and just got downvoted into oblivion. All you saw was how OP the TR/NC were compared the VS MAX abilities. The community and moderators are completely biased and that is where the devs get most of their information from.

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Again you're completely missing the point.
It's not so much about what you write but how you write it. (And by you I mean any person)

I am fully aware of that. I am saying I could care less how I write something and people shouldn't be worried about that. When it comes to something like the biolab spawn mechanic, I think there should be very harsh feedback, just like about the implants. These are not good ideas and in fact, are game breaking and the designers should know this. It is their fault and like I said, if they cannot take the heat, they should be working somewhere else.

[KesTro]

Well first off, why would anyone go to reddit? Secondly when did we start liking Biolab fights. As far as it goes on Connery at least from an NC perspective (ironic, no?) most people despise biolab fights even if they're the defenders for the simple fact that they won't go anywhere until one side outnumbers the other to a ridiculous degree at which point there isn't a fight for a base. It's just defenders getting camped in spawn.

Even if this change did go through would it honestly be so bad that we'd not get caught up at these bases for three hours on our predetermined lattice link to victory? it's not as if we can just go around the bloody thing. Not everyone is an an outfit that can field a full platoon at a moment's notice, we can't all zerg our way to victory.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Natir

You are dictating how people should interact on the internet. You cannot.

No, I'm reminding you how things work here. Like back when people thought it was perfectly fine to attack SOE employees personally. There is a line that one should not cross. The line exists, not to protect developers, but to make sure that PSU stays relevant.

Originally Posted by Natir

You want to talk about what is unconstructive? Reddit. Like what I said below, Reddit has actually done more damage than good to this game. Devs never get to see any negative feedback so they get a feeling they can do no wrong.

I don't use Reddit so I'll have to take other people's word on how it works there. Not the first time I've heard about discussions just getting downvoted. However I will take the statement of Reddit never giving critical/negative feedback with a grain of salt. It's possible but I doubt it's entirely true.

Originally Posted by Natir

I am fully aware of that. I am saying I could care less how I write something and people shouldn't be worried about that. When it comes to something like the biolab spawn mechanic, I think there should be very harsh feedback, just like about the implants. These are not good ideas and in fact, are game breaking and the designers should know this. It is their fault and like I said, if they cannot take the heat, they should be working somewhere else.

Well if you make us mods care then the devs won't even get to see your feedback. The internet isn't just some free haven for someone to be an ass, at the very least one has to accept the same consequences as one would outside of the internet.
It's entirely possible to deliver harsh critiscm without resorting to unconstructive nonsense like insults, attacks, demanding someone getting fired, devs dropping their PR tour in order to appease the community etc.
You don't get to dictate how much abuse the developers should just accept when reading feedback.

Edit: Have we now reached an understanding when it comes to whether or not there is actually a limit, even if it's very lenient, to just how unconstructive people are allowed to be? Not all impolite critiscm is unconstructive.
Hopefully we have so the thread doesn't have to be derailed any further.

Originally Posted by KesTro

Well first off, why would anyone go to reddit? Secondly when did we start liking Biolab fights. As far as it goes on Connery at least from an NC perspective (ironic, no?) most people despise biolab fights even if they're the defenders for the simple fact that they won't go anywhere until one side outnumbers the other to a ridiculous degree at which point there isn't a fight for a base. It's just defenders getting camped in spawn.

Even if this change did go through would it honestly be so bad that we'd not get caught up at these bases for three hours on our predetermined lattice link to victory? it's not as if we can just go around the bloody thing. Not everyone is an an outfit that can field a full platoon at a moment's notice, we can't all zerg our way to victory.

I agree about what Bio Lab fights can end up becoming, which I'm guessing is also the main reason for the changes.

Aside from the vehicle bay teleporter, the changes may be nessecary to stop things from getting stalemated until one side gets bored. That is to say that the changes may be nessecary because of the lack of a proper resource system. When they implement that it should help guarantee that even the most defensible facility will eventually fall when its been completely drained.
The current changes seem more like a band-aid, imho. Although some of the changes to the layout I do very much like because they make more sense.

That said it still seems like they might have given the attackers too much of an advantage, level design wise. Again not counting the vehicle bay.

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by KesTro

Well first off, why would anyone go to reddit? Secondly when did we start liking Biolab fights. As far as it goes on Connery at least from an NC perspective (ironic, no?) most people despise biolab fights even if they're the defenders for the simple fact that they won't go anywhere until one side outnumbers the other to a ridiculous degree at which point there isn't a fight for a base. It's just defenders getting camped in spawn.

Even if this change did go through would it honestly be so bad that we'd not get caught up at these bases for three hours on our predetermined lattice link to victory? it's not as if we can just go around the bloody thing. Not everyone is an an outfit that can field a full platoon at a moment's notice, we can't all zerg our way to victory.

How about this: Biolabs were LEAST broken of all facilities. You wanna know the best facility designed so far? There isn't any.

Here's another mindblower: If every base was defensible, the bar where defensible becomes farmable would've been much higher.

[ringring]

Originally Posted by NewSith

How abnout this: Biolabs were LEAST broken of all facilities. You wanna know the best facility designed so far? There isn't any.

Here's another mindblower: If every base would be defensible, the bar where defensible becomes farmable would've been much higher.

I'd agree.

Of the three main bases I think the Bio is the best. Certainly it's the base where I've had the most enjoyable fights most often.

[Mordelicius]

Originally Posted by KesTro

We lost that with the lattice though. If every base was up to snuff with that one base than no one would ever get anywhere.

*edit* And I mean that in terms of defensibility.

Read. Out of things that PCGamer can write about PS2, they write about the the Crown.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/01/23/pl...e-2-the-crown/

I quote from the article:

"Those bases still have their differences compared to The Crown, of course. So, we need to look at how we can recreate The Crown’s lightning-in-a-bottle kind of reputation" - Higby

Does it have to be a carbon copy of The Crown? Look, even they know how attractive the base is. Now, they have it opposite, they prefer to drab down popular bases so it becomes less popular . Instead, they are trying to recreate Xenotech Lab's revolving-door-on-the-wall reputation .

The point is they are tearing down the bases players like best. The Biolab has been stable since they've added that large spawn. They've changed the SCU-Gen mechanic. They've lowered the capture timer to 3 minutes . Now, they've literally turned the base upside down:

- Attackers have all the covers.
- Attackers are closer to the Capture Points.
- Attackers have access to high buildings while Defenders have none.
- Worse of all, defenders are now spawn campable on two spots: Biolab proper and the vehicle console area.

It's as if the attackers are the defenders and vice versa. What exactly are these data they point to? Too many kills/deaths? Of course, players love the base.

Players will continue to leave due to continued removal of attractive features of PS2. Read: http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=56506.
Accurate right? This is another example of tampering with gameplay/mechanic/designs to regulate cert gain. They really should lowered the xp gain directly. I've been saying that since last year. I knew meatgrinder bases are frowned upon by SOE (isn't that their hook? Massive scale PvP)? If they implement XP gain timer cooldown upon death, they don't have to worry about massive meatgrinder farms (massive scale pvp and meatgrinder fights are inseparable; but they can still regulate xp gain without destroying gameplay/mechanics/base designs). That's what players want, shooting and blasting, not waiting, wiping, walking or camping spawns.

[KesTro]

Yes and I understand at least I'd like to think so where both side would be coming at this from. That said I stand by my accusations to the lattice. Players have complained about the lack of defensibility for a long time now. Once the lattice was added almost immediately you started seeing people complaining about not getting anywhere on a continent. So what is a dev to do? As Chip said it seems like a band-aid for the time being.

And you're absolutely right players want to shoot blast and grind but I'm afraid implementing a timer before they're rewarded for doing it doesn't seem like a very good idea. Honestly I'm not too sure regulating cert gain is the reason for this change simply a bi-product of it.

I'm not saying the design is perfect as is and it definitely will need some tweaking before it can be allowed to go to live.

On a side note I'm not sure I can accept anything in that article as being valid anymore due to it being published when the hex system was still in effect. A lot of what they said can't apply to the current game as is due to the lattice. When the Hex system was in place and people could be anywhere at anytime. Yeah there was a major need for things to be more like the crown. Now though, we are literally on rails. If every base becomes defensible I'm afraid that we might all only be seeing the same three bases every day. (Down from the same five. :| )

*Edit* Fixed Chip's name from Chimp. >>;

[Badjuju]

Originally Posted by Natir

Feedback doesn't have to be constructive. One can offer suggestions but at the same time, no one is required to pander to SOE. If they will only listen to you if you are constructive, well, then, their game will die even quicker. I say let it happen. If they refuse to even read negative feedback, then I just laugh. That is what this whole biolab spawn change is, completely negative. No one asked for it, no one wanted it, it is just a joke. Show me where people wanted that spawn change.

Lol? Your whole paragraph is baffling. Constructive is not synonymous with positive lol. You can be negative and still be incredibly constructive.

[Wargrim]

In today's patch, they changed it so you spawn directly in the small spawn building, and there is one teleporter inside it leading down to the vehicle spawn.

No more long walk over stairs and through vehicle campable vehicle bay to get out of spawn. Also no more walking through an open killzone to reach the teleporter as it is on life servers at the moment.

With the big spawning fuckup out of the way, this is looking a lot more positive, with some adjustments to improve the area around the spawn hut ( give defenders access to higher levels like the old 3 story spawn did, use stairs or such ) and to break up the large open killzone between spawn and scu/shield gen ( simply add back the cover that used to be there, or add new cover in a way that allows defenders to move without getting shot from 360° ) this could become a real improvement compared to what we have on life.

Thumbs up for listening, whoever changed it.

[GreyFrog]

I would have;
1. Removed the first spawn room.
2. Had everyone spawn down stairs and covered the walk way to the teleporter completely over with a couple of exits.

It gives the defenders a little bit longer walk. The attacker has the option of attempting to interrupt the flow of battle down stairs with out license to spam infantry from inside vehicles.

Biolab definitely needs some work though.

[ChipMHazard]

Glad to see that they've changed it so fast. Hope they give the vertical spawm camping a look see so as to help the defenders some more.

[Jax Blake]

A good change getting rid of that long run but the attackers advantage is still too great. I don't see any decent exits from that spawn room from a competent attacking force and there is next to no chance of saving that SCU once it goes critical. The wide open space where the old spawn room use to be is just a kill zone or get farmed zone depending on which side of the fight you're on.

[HelpLuperza]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Tbh, I think it's a bit early to already put the bitter-vet hat up and stomp this design into the ground.

This is a really good point.