Upcomming Surge Changes! - Page 8

Happy lil Elf · 2004-03-13, 06:40 PM

Nice way to stay on topic. Ok fair enough. You want an Ad Hominen attack? Fuck. You. hows that?

I dont need to justify the way I spend my money but I can tell you that I am fed up and wont be giving it to these retards any longer. There just isnt any reason to. Plenty of other games out there to play, and plenty of other ways to spend my money

and

/shrug a whole bunch of people are going to quit that may not have wanted to quit. So we are angry and have every right to be. This change is akin to your dog hungrily eating a pile of its own shit. Its a real stupid thing to do and really unnecessary. You change something so core to the game that has been in place for a year and your going to piss a whole lot of people off. This game just geeps getting worse so its now time to leave. I was patient during the retarted move of the decimator, I was patient during all the Lasher crap and all the Infiltrator bugs which are still not fixed. Its really not suprising this game has a new producer every 4 months.

Oxo, I've had an epiphany. You've been a fucking crybaby about this game since launch, you were a fucking crybaby in EQ andm apparently, you'll always be a fucking crybaby.

So here, let me put it in terms you can understand with your infant like mindset:

Na-na-na-na, na-na-na-na, hey-hey-hey, goodbye.

BDMJ · 2004-03-13, 08:11 PM

It will further balance the powerful short ranged weapons in the game. The short range was designed to be a limitation on those weapons and the trade of was the massive damage they do once CQB is reached. Surge circumvented that limitation by greatly reducing the time you would have to spend at medium or longer ranges. This was an effective combination that one empire enjoyed for a long time while the other 2 empires had no such combination. This will help restore balance, which is a good thing.

The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

Additionally it is obvious that by leaving the buggy netcode intact, that warping will still be an issue. So the devs are nerfing the effectiveness of a legitimate combat strategy and leaving the source of the problem intact, am I right? It might not be as bad, but the problem will still be there. You all are satisfied with this? You shouldn't be. You will still be bitching about warping two months from now, and the devs will have nerfed surge over and over without fixing it. This will not fix the problem, so I don't think it is an acceptable change! The z-axis prediction code needs revision, not the surge implant. A player-base that is satisfied with this quick-fix bullshit will eventually ruin the game, not some idiotic balance problem.

Krinsath · 2004-03-13, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by BDMJ

The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

The Lasher is not terribly effective beyond 30-35m...that's 1/3 of the range that most rifles (save the Pulsar) are still competent. The MCG is a medium range weapon, but the CoF bloom on it is so insane as to make firing beyond 20m quite the exercise in ammo wasting, which the MCG user can't carry enough of as it takes 1/6 of his inventory to carry a reload. Yes, there are serious trade-offs to be made when carrying HA weapons.

Originally Posted by BDMJ

Additionally it is obvious that by leaving the buggy netcode intact, that warping will still be an issue. So the devs are nerfing the effectiveness of a legitimate combat strategy and leaving the source of the problem intact, am I right? It might not be as bad, but the problem will still be there. You all are satisfied with this? You shouldn't be. You will still be bitching about warping two months from now, and the devs will have nerfed surge over and over without fixing it. This will not fix the problem, so I don't think it is an acceptable change! The z-axis prediction code needs revision, not the surge implant. A player-base that is satisfied with this quick-fix bullshit will eventually ruin the game, not some idiotic balance problem.

The problem people have with warping is that people are able to abuse it to gain an advantage they were never meant to have. The netcode *is* a problem and it *is* being worked on. Until it is fixed though, why should the Devs allow players to exploit a well-known bug? That is the idiotic idea. "Yeah, we know that people are abusing this bug...but you guys just tough it out to these people who are advancing using an exploit while you suffer through playing within the intended rules...it'll only be another three or four months!" Yeah...that is a really dumb idea, which is why the Devs are going with DOING something.

By all means, fix the warping. It affects more than just surgiles (afterburning mosquitos, for instance). The problem is that an afterburning mosquito doesn't have that much in the way of targets, and it takes a ton of luck to do serious damage at 228kph with a 12mm gun. The surgile, abusing their abilities to the fullest, usually does have targets filling their crosshairs at point-blank with a weapon designed for CQB.

The "nerf" is going in because surge made a basic bug into an exploit. Leaving in a known flaw just because it's hard to fix while thousands of people abuse it would be like Microsoft just shrugging the next time a major vulnerability is exposed (read: tomorrow) and not releasing a patch to prevent it from being abused. Sometimes those bugs don't get fixed for months down the line, but they try to have the stop-gap out the next day.

Yes, the Devs SHOULD have nerfed surge many months ago, and I'm mad that they've waited this long to admit that they have a problem. At the same time, the problem is being addressed. Is the playerbase satisfied with just this fix? No...but it puts an end to the most obvious abuse of it. It will not fix the problem of the netcode, but it will fix the problem of people ABUSING the netcode. They are separate issues, merely related. When the netcode is fixed and warping is no longer an issue, they may very well return surge to its current form...NO DEV HAS SAID EITHER WAY. Don't assume that an obvious stop-gap is permanent...you're not on the Dev team and have no knowledge at all of what they're working on or how it's progressing. For all you know, they have a group of programmers who have been trying to refine the code for months and are not making serious headway simply because the technology isn't there to do it. You *don't* know, so stop trying to act like you do know what's going on down the road. The current facts are the warping is a problem...warping while being able to inflict damage is leading to unwinnable fights for many people which is in turn costing them subscriptions...as such, they are removing the ability to inflict damage while warping until such time as warping is no longer an issue.

Obviously if the Devs are removing it from the game, they disagree that it is a legitimate combat tactic...as they did with the JH's quad shot and soon the Lasher's 360 degree invulnerability aura.

WritheNC · 2004-03-13, 09:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDMJ
The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

The Lasher is not terribly effective beyond 30-35m...that's 1/3 of the range that most rifles (save the Pulsar) are still competent. The MCG is a medium range weapon, but the CoF bloom on it is so insane as to make firing beyond 20m quite the exercise in ammo wasting, which the MCG user can't carry enough of as it takes 1/6 of his inventory to carry a reload. Yes, there are serious trade-offs to be made when carrying HA weapons.

You misunderstood what he was saying. BDMJ is saying that the Lasher and MCG are effective at close range, and that VS and TR do use surge to close the gap to maximize their HA.

Diddy Mao · 2004-03-13, 09:31 PM

But it isn't as necessary as it is for the NC, the Tr/Vs don't need to close the gap for their HA's to be effective. -_- NC's gett'n n3rfed and one of the viable tatics we use to stay in the game has just been pwnt out of existance. None of you Tr/Vs care games gonna "almost" be the same for you. I rarely voice my opinion on game changed but this is the one that takes a big effect gameplay, once again NC are gett'n hit hard -_- with another n3rf

Yerster · 2004-03-13, 09:40 PM

It has oits good points an bad points. (more bad than good) I personly have never seen or noticed any of this warping that people complan about. an i am going to miss beign able to surge up behind someone in my infiltraitor suit an unload my beamer into there back before thay knew what hit them. now it is going to be alot harder to do such things.

Krinsath · 2004-03-13, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Diddy Mao

But it isn't as necessary as it is for the NC, the Tr/Vs don't need to close the gap for their HA's to be effective. -_- NC's gett'n n3rfed and one of the viable tatics we use to stay in the game has just been pwnt out of existance. None of you Tr/Vs care games gonna "almost" be the same for you. I rarely voice my opinion on game changed but this is the one that takes a big effect gameplay, once again NC are gett'n hit hard -_- with another n3rf

Oh FFS...the reason why nobody listens to anyone complaining about how the NC are hurt is explained in the Empire-specific weapon review as follows:

TR
Repeater - A decent long range pistol, but useless for anything other than long range shooting. Too slow and too little damage to be an effective infiltrator weapon.

Cycler - Good MA. Loses some effectiveness when the range closes up and the TTK on the Cycler doesn't go up by that much in comparison. Excellent weapon at range.

MCG - Again, a competent weapon. Not a game-breaker, but enough of an advantage over MA to be worth it.

Striker - Horribly bugged. Good for AA and that's about it.

Dual-Cycler - A mediocre (at best) AI MAX...but the TR special ability makes them decimator bait.

Pounder - Same as above, except now that it's AV instead of AI, there's no chance of them not getting deci'ed.

Burster - In extremely limited circumstances, it's a good AA MAX. The other 95% of the time, it's useless. It can't hit aircraft at the flight ceiling (something no other empire suffers from), it has no guidance systems, and again, the special ability makes it a giant target. When you can't move, decimators have an remarkably effective range.

Marauder - There's a reason you don't see many of these. The grenade launcher is pitiful and a 12mm doesn't help. It's basically easy BEP for a Reaver or tank.

Prowler - A mediocre tank, problem is that like the maruader, it takes 150% of the crew that the other two empires need. Hence, in a balanced population, the Prowler is always outnumbered...and since the tanks are theoretically balanced 1v1, that means the Prowler will generally lose in an armor battle of even people (people, not tanks).

VS
Beamer - good for clearing mines. Useless against anything that can fight back.

Pulsar - Is there a more worthless MA in the game? It is, as I've said many times, a short-ranged rifle. Get a Sweeper, more effective MA weapon.

Lasher - We know this one is insane, hopefully the bug fixes will bring it back in line.

Lancer - Good AV weapon. Does damage but is not overpowering in doing so. No guidance at all so the high RoF is offset by the need to manually aim the weapon.

Quasar - Absolutely sick AI MAX. From a damage standpoint, it beats the Lasher in almost every single category.

Comet - Kind of a blah AV MAX, but with some decent AI damage thanks to the plasma burns. AV MAXes suck across the board against vehicles, so this one is average.

Starfire - Plane-Away...this MAX can bring down an entire air squadron if it wanted to. Sit two of them on a hill overlooking a vehicle pad and you'll never have to worry about the enemy getting any planes in the air.

Thresher - Ummm....it's good to have at a 70s theme party, but other than that it's kind of useless as a weapons platform. Good mowing, but that's about it.

Magrider - As a battle tank, it's kind of iffy. As an anti-infantry/anti-aircraft platform, it's damned potent. The ability to launch an armored assault at any point and transport LLUs over water are also nice benefits.

NC
ScatterMag - best pistol for infiltrators. Useless against deployables, which makes it unique in being good against the enemy, but bad against his stuff.

Gauss - damned effective rifle. Equal at least to the Cycler at range and MUCH better than the Cycler indoors. Only downside to it is the 30 round clip.

JackHammer - Still a decent HA, especially in a tower fight or CC storm. Not as useful as other HAs in a hallway battle perhaps, but still competent at least (just look at the number of TR and VS who still loot them and smash NC with them).

Phoenix - Arguably the best AV in the game, slightly tarnished by the illiterate amongst the NC who thought that said "best AI in the game". Get a group of Phoenixes together and they can ensure that nothing outdoors gets anywhere...all without the possibility of being shot back at.

Scattercannon - Not the best of MAXes outdoors, a lethal monster indoors second only to the Quasar. The shield ensures that it will actually kill someone before it dies (unlike the TR MAX).

Falcon - Best AV MAX in the game (not that it says a whole lot...). Also does a damned impressive amount of splash damage to infantry, a good MAX to use while waiting for your Scatter to be available.

Sparrow - Second best AA in the game, only because the Starfire is sick. Group of those can keep the skies free of planes...unlike the Starfire which can almost do it on its own.

Enforcer - The one effective buggy in the game. The missile launcher is mean. You can set up a long ways away from a door and shell the crap out of it. Seen this done many times to great effect.

Vanguard - Best tank in the game. Heavy damage, heavy armor, decent speed. Get a squad of Vanguards rolling and it will take two to three times the force (people wise) to stop you.

So to review...the lame ducks (in their class):

TR - Striker, DC, Pounder, Burster, Marauder, Prowler

VS - Beamer, Pulsar, Thresher

NC - Jackhammer MAYBE

Hence why nobody really pities the NC. You have almost no crappy weapons in your inventory except for MAYBE the Jackhammer and that's not even a clear cut case. Hence, quit acting like the NC are some poor put upon step-child who is forced to clean the Dev's basement while the other empires live the high life. Looking at the various weapons, if *anyone* can claim that title, it's those who wear the red and black.

In short, if you're NC and want to say that no surge makes the JH useless:

1) You're lying as it doesn't make it useless, just requires you to adjust your tactics (surge STILL works...you just have to turn it off when you get there and can't fire the whole way...you'll get no pity from any of the scattercannon MAX pilots who currently have to do this and have a cooldown period before they can fire).

and

2) Quit your bitching

LimpBIT · 2004-03-13, 10:38 PM

well maybe if we keep bitching then they will stop the changes.

Krinsath · 2004-03-13, 10:47 PM

Doubt it, this isn't a "balance fix" as much as it is an "exploit fix". All the whining in the world from the NC doesn't stop the quad shot exploit from going away, and I doubt it will work here. PS is a better game for this change overall.

Eldanesh · 2004-03-13, 11:01 PM

What really bugs me, more than the nerf, nerfs I can deal with. (I mean, now I am going have to make like I am playing Halo in Legendary dealing with these rexos in surgile now, but it is still managable.)

What I don't get is the bitterness that some people have pent-up about surgiles, like its just the tactic that kills them. I mean, people laughing their asses off on the forums and stupid "HAHA noob exploit whore I hope you enjoy getting nerfed!" tells.

Jeeze, people who prefer surge + agile are still people. Up close they trade precious halves of seconds of TTK simply to be able to move around the enemy and flank/ outmanuver, etc. Just because the devs decided to give us the shit end of the stick does not entitle people who disliked surgile to act like total jackasses, good players will manage, no matter how nerfed.

When they nerfed vehicle mowing, the good magrider drives still come through, maybe this means that when they nerf surgile it will no longer be associated with noob and I can start calling people rexonoobs.

Do you really want all combat to be as forumlaic as either have rexo HA or you are dead indoors? Surgile hardly dominates, if you are a good shot with a decent machine you should easily be able to track someone surging, remember, just because you have slightly better gear does not entitle you to a 100%, a 90%, a 80%, or even a 70% chance to win. Its all in how you apply what you have to the situation.

Please just try surgiling for a little while before they nerf it, its really harder than it looks/people make it out to be, before throwing a blanket statment of noobhammer over people, walk around in their surge-shoes. (Yes, I have played both HA and MA rexos, both for about 3 weeks each (MA prior to rexo buff), easier than putting on a hat too; Surgiling is just so much more fun to play with.)

*To those who started moaning about weapon balences*

Please stop bitching about MA balence, it irks me as MA is really one of the best-balenced certs out there and if they changed it, the resulting imbalence would be far worse than any HA imbalence. To those who say the CoF on cycler is too big, take the brick off the trigger and burst, cycler has a tighter CoF than the gauss for the first few shots and in bursts can be more accurate while drawing longer bursts. Pulsar too is just as capable as the gauss/cycler/whatever I have met many skilled pulsar users out there, buffing it just because whiney little Billy has a hard time one-shotting max's on 2ndary is absolutely not needed.

Pre-lasher buff if they had simply fixed 4-shot on JH and *maybe* added 5 to the clip then HA would be balenced. (Bitching about CoF or ammo space on MCG will get nowhere, that thing has a massive clip and the best HA range, its an awesome weapon and yes I do store many of them. br 1-11 in one night with that thing! wewt!

)
EDIT:
Also, Striker: each of those missiles does a little less than a phoenix does. If its a buggy as you make it out to be then I don't wanna see it fixed. 3-4 guys with strikers firing on a Van will take it down FAST as is, Phoenix has a slow as hell TTK, however hiding makes up for it. AV is well-balenced atm. I will concede that the lockons to deploables and turrets are just screwy, but on vehicles its damn effective.

Enforcer is the best buggy right now imo, however the thresher has hella AV damage, it still is lacking the shot-speed it needs as well as the ammo it needs. Marauder too need some love, pre-balence pass the grenade on the marauder was awesome, its just terrible now.

Claiming that AV maxs are a legitmate empire advantage is almost as bad as saying that one empires knife has too distictive a sound.

Burster does need a lil to hit that lib on the ceiling, as is a buster has to spend an inordiate amount of effort to hit a lib while starfire/sparrows just lock on, up close bursters can do just as good if not better than other av.

On tanks: Mags/ Prowlers are hardly gimped, Prowlers simply need to be used more by TR. (I shake my head whenever I have to watch Tr insistant on zerging tower-to-base on foot rather than rolling armor) Magriders in their element, on water are neigh unstoppable and on ground by sniping/ hit + run they are awesome tankhunters. I don't know what you are talking about when you say they own at AI it sucks at it, they really need to get rid of the "speedbump" effect you get from mowing, it totally killed magrider AI.

TR - Striker, DC, Pounder, Burster, Marauder, Prowler (WTF DPS on this thing is nuts up close, if the gunner can hit for shit it will chew up a vanguard, even without the 12mm)

VS - Beamer, Pulsar, Thresher

NC - Jackhammer MAYBE

Imo,
TR - buggie + AA max buff (slight) + undeployed TR maxes need to be a little closer to their counterparts in other empires
VS - buggie buff
NC - (Just leave them alone, dropping the 5m lash will drop JH back into place, although I still am for dropping 2ndary for a tighter pellet spread, even if its not as tight as sweeper, tighter.)

For all: unilateral AV max buffs/redesign, The devs will be buffign cloakers anyway so no comment on pistols

Seer · 2004-03-13, 11:10 PM

I've been running around in rexo without surge since beta, and surgiles never bugged me. I'm ambivalent about this adjustment.

BDMJ · 2004-03-13, 11:27 PM

Krinsath that balance discussion was the biggest load of horsecrap I have seen in a long time. The weapons are balanced for the most part and your bitching is even more obnoxious than that which you complain about because it is so damn constant. Regarding the quad shot "exploit" fix, keep in mind that the devs can call anything an exploit at any time and change it. If it was such a huge exploit, why did it take the devs 8 months to fix it, did it just slip their minds?

Krinsath · 2004-03-13, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Eldanesh

What really bugs me, more than the nerf, nerfs I can deal with. (I mean, now I am going have to make like I am playing Halo in Legendary dealing with these rexos in surgile now, but it is still managable.)

So you'll be like everyone who plays TR now. Congrats.

Originally Posted by Eldanesh

What I don't get is the bitterness that some people have pent-up about surgiles, like its just the tactic that kills them. I mean, people laughing their asses off on the forums and stupid "HAHA noob exploit whore I hope you enjoy getting nerfed!" tells.

Not that it's really excusable to be an ass under any circumstances, you must understand that these people have vindication that the tactic being used was indeed an exploit and needs to be fixed. It's the backlash from the Surgile attitude of "Well, you guys just suck...get better!"

Originally Posted by Eldanesh

Jeeze, people who prefer surge + agile are still people. Up close they trade precious halves of seconds of TTK simply to be able to move around the enemy and flank/ outmanuver, etc. Just because the devs decided to give us the shit end of the stick does not entitle people who disliked surgile to act like total jackasses, good players will manage, no matter how nerfed.

When they nerfed vehicle mowing, the good magrider drives still come through, maybe this means that when they nerf surgile it will no longer be associated with noob and I can start calling people rexonoobs.

Indeed, the Agiles who stay indoors will be the ones who are good. However, CQB is the realm of the Rexo...the Devs have decided to patch over an exploit to ensure that the game does what it was supposed to do when they thought it up. The Surgile was not what they had thought of for base assaults. Now, they're getting rid of it. Does that mean the Agile will not be seen indoors anymore? No...just means they're going to be a lot less common on the point of attack...which is as it should be.

Originally Posted by Eldanesh

Do you really want all combat to be as forumlaic as either have rexo HA or you are dead indoors? Surgile hardly dominates, if you are a good shot with a decent machine you should easily be able to track someone surging, remember, just because you have slightly better gear does not entitle you to a 100%, a 90%, a 80%, or even a 70% chance to win. Its all in how you apply what you have to the situation.

Slightly better gear? Twice the armor does not constitute "slightly" better. Get a tank, now take on another tank with the same gun but twice the armor, you'll lose 10 times out of 10 (assuming you don't have an insta-kill gun). Indoors, the combat isn't as clear cut as a tank battle, but it should still be a heavy advantage to those who choose to specialize in infantry combat. Those would be your HA Rexos. If you've not dedicated yourself to infantry assaults that much for whatever reason, that's fine. But don't cry because the assault specialists are now better at what they're SUPPOSED to be better than you at.

Originally Posted by Eldanesh

Please just try surgiling for a little while before they nerf it, its really harder than it looks/people make it out to be, before throwing a blanket statment of noobhammer over people, walk around in their surge-shoes. (Yes, I have played both HA and MA rexos, both for about 3 weeks each (MA prior to rexo buff), easier than putting on a hat too; Surgiling is just so much more fun to play with.)

Surge isn't the problem, Surge warping is. Surge in terms of speed remains unchanged. You can STILL surge down a hallway to get at the enemy. You just can't spam whatever weapon you have while doing it. Have someone lob plasma grenades down the hall with a 3 second fuse, run in after the last one is launched, you'll arrive about the time the last grenade goes off and draw your weapon and fight...damnit! There I go again mentioning teamwork and tactics rather than Rambo-style play...silly me...keep forgetting that PS is about the twitch gamers and not about teamwor....oh WAIT! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO WORK AS A GROUP AND NOT AS INDIVIDUALS IN PLANETSIDE.

Originally Posted by Eldanesh

*To those who started moaning about weapon balences*

Please stop bitching about MA balence, it irks me as MA is really one of the best-balenced certs out there and if they changed it, the resulting imbalence would be far worse than any HA imbalence. To those who say the CoF on cycler is too big, take the brick off the trigger and burst, cycler has a tighter CoF than the gauss for the first few shots and in bursts can be more accurate while drawing longer bursts. Pulsar too is just as capable as the gauss/cycler/whatever I have met many skilled pulsar users out there, buffing it just because whiney little Billy has a hard time one-shotting max's on 2ndary is absolutely not needed.

Cycler and Gauss are perfectly fine the way they are. The Pulsar is useless. Yes, it can be used, but at the ranges that it is most effective, the Lasher is beginning its effective range. The damage degradation on it is shameful...at range it does less damage per shot than the Cycler. It is a short-ranged rifle, and that makes it useless as a rifle. Tone down the damage degradation, and the weapon becomes much more viable...maybe then you'll see VS soldiers carrying something other than a Lasher.

Originally Posted by Eldanesh

Pre-lasher buff if they had simply fixed 4-shot on JH and *maybe* added 5 to the clip then HA would be balenced. (Bitching about CoF or ammo space on MCG will get nowhere, that thing has a massive clip and the best HA range, its an awesome weapon and yes I do store many of them. br 1-11 in one night with that thing! wewt!

)

The HA is almost balanced as it is. Once they fix the Lasher bugs, it'll be about right except the JH should have the Sweeper's pellet spread (why should the 2 cert MA weapon do more damage per average hit than the 6 cert HA weapon?). The MCG does have the best HA range and ammo...trade off being the high CoF and the low damage per hit. One of the few weapons with the TR design motif that is actually effective.

BadAsh · 2004-03-13, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by BDMJ

The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

I never said that other empires did not have HA. I just said that the other empires have slower TTK HA but they have an effective medium range. The NC lose the meduim range for a faster CQB TTK. So the HA+Surge combo was more advantageous to the NC than the other 2 empires. I also never said the TR and VS don't gain advantage from Surge. My only point was that the NC got more bang for their buck with Surge. That's all I said.

Eldanesh · 2004-03-13, 11:54 PM

Don't even wanna start a quote-war, but the only difference between a HA rexo and a surgile HA is the surgile spends an implant, the Rexo spends 3 certs. I am not saying it is right to warp, however losing all the mobility one once had while trying to close the distance is placing too much on equipment. This is an fps, not an rpg and also indoors, the combat isn't as clear cut as a tank battle.

but it should still be a heavy advantage to those who choose to specialize in infantry combat.

1v1 it should be even, in the heat of battle where there are many random factors, the extra armor does make a difference, but in the end it should be one persons skill that determines how they fare, not their gear.

Surgiles are just as capable of teamwork as Rexos are as well, in many cases more so as rexos can carry much of what they need with less inventory-fumbling.