Science vs Religion - Page 8

Firefly · 2011-10-02, 02:02 AM

This faith-healing stuff reminds me of the movie "Fletch Lives".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-ZEv...tailpage#t=49s

Traak · 2011-10-02, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

And I note you've healed

No, God heals, we only do what is necessary to allow him to work for any given person in any given situation. Just like aerodynamics, mechanical engineering, or gravity, God works by laws. If you find them out and use them, they work.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Don't hold back, lets see something big.

But, as I said earlier, the power of God is given to do good, not to perform parlor tricks for people who won't believe, no matter what. Jesus wouldn't jump through hoops to appease people, and we, the believers, aren't allowed to, either. He was almighty, and could have done any number of miracles right there to shut them up, and he didn't. I'm not almighty, how much less likely is it for God to do something to entertain and dazzle you through me?

To say that no one ever got healed by God's power because I haven't ministered to someone in the regrowing of a limb is as invalid as saying the laws of aerodynamics didn't work for the Wright Brothers because they didn't create an A380. "Flying doesn't work! No way! If flying REALLY worked, you would have built a four-engine, two-floor passenger jet!"

Working for a living is not a failed concept because I have never become a billionaire. Bodybuilding isn't invalid because I have never lifted 1000 pounds in the deadlift. It doesn't mean I have never deadlifted.

I am not stating these things to make you believe. I am stating them because they are true. What you believe is up to you, and is largely based on your choices. Some people are smart enough to believe what God said without having to see someone raised from the dead after being run through a tree chipper. Others, such as yourself, think that not seeing something like that is your excuse not to believe, your proof that God isn't at work.

Hey, take whatever excuse you want! Let the fact that you stubbed your toe be proof that God doesn't exist if that's what you want. Let the fact that Jesus has never descended into your living room in a flaming chariot, stepped down, and handed you an autographed copy of the Bible made of solid platinum be your excuse. If you need an excuse, you can surely invent one that is more creative than just not having seen a creative miracle!

Your choice is why you believe what you believe, not the other way around. God said he was real and sent Jesus to save me, and I believed that. If you state that you need more proof, well, I can't help you. Ask God to make himself real to you, if he exists. He will, but whether you choose to serve him will still be up to you.

It's funny, people risk their lives on far less evidence. Does every person who engages in immoral sex run their latest conquest through a blood test to ascertain whether he, she, or it has an STD before engaging in high-risk behaviors? Do they say "Show me tangible, visible, concrete evidence that you don't have AIDS before we copulate."? She didn't tell you she had AIDS. And that is proof enough! But if she told you "My neck got healed at church the other day!" NOW we need a mountain of evidence?

People demand ridiculous manifestations of God's power for their amusement to prove that he's real? How about if people switch it around. Then at least the AIDS epidemic would be drastically reduced.

I believed God. Then he has manifested things that can only be explained (by a sane person) as having been done by him. It's the way he works. We believe, we act on that belief, we get results. God doesn't prance around sprinkling results around like some cosmic Tinkerbell, and we get to browse through the results until we find one that convinces us that he is real.

We have the Bible. Rejecting that, we have our creative and convincing excuses about why it doesn't work.

Or, accepting it, which I did, we can get positive results.

It can't be a placebo effect for a girl who thought it was stupid to get healed. She wasn't falling at my feet fawning upon me, expecting great things. She let me minister to her because her boyfriend asked me to, and was not impressed. UNTIL she noticed her neck was healed.

I ministered to one friend of mine who didn't even know what I was doing, and the only time she realized something had happened was when she realized she was healed. How can it be a placebo effect when the person isn't even aware?

Nah. God works today, through the common man, that people who aren't too determined to reject him no matter what will know that God is at work.

Baneblade · 2011-10-02, 05:31 AM

Yet, the fact remains... everything you have claimed to have done cannot be medically verified. And of course eyewitness 'testimony' is invalid.

Do something no mere witch doctor can do and you have credibility. I've personally seen pagan shamans do far more amazing things than what you describe.

Traak · 2011-10-02, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Yet, the fact remains... everything you have claimed to have done cannot be medically verified. And of course eyewitness 'testimony' is invalid.

Do something no mere witch doctor can do and you have credibility. I've personally seen pagan shamans do far more amazing things than what you describe.

It wasn't an entrance into an Amazing Supernatural Things Some Doubter Has Witnessed contest. I know people do supernatural things that are not from God. The magicians of pharaoh did similar miracles to Moses for the first few miracles. It's old news to say that the ungodly can also do supernatural things. Thousands of years old.

God doing something for someone that isn't at a ridiculous level of spectacular enough to make you say "Wow, now if that happens twice on a Tuesday, THEN I will believe" isn't what he's about. Sure, God loves everyone. But he can't make them believe anything.

I mean, there was pharaoh, on the edge of a sea that had been split open, the sea bed made capable of being walked over by millions, and this by the God that he had made himself an enemy of, and he drives right into it to pursue the people said God had just demanded he set free. You think he might have stopped and said "Wow, now if he just makes the entire sea dry up, or turn into wine, or turn into gold coins, THEN I will realize he is God."? Whatever went through his mind, he pursued, the sea came back down, and he and his entire army were destroyed.

The Egyptians suffered days, possibly weeks of miraculous events and Pharaoh yet hardened his heart. He was eyewitness to greater things than your pagan shamans could ever DREAM of doing. And he still hardened his heart. Did god manifesting vast power change his heart? No.

And it won't change yours, either.

MadPenguin · 2011-10-02, 07:47 AM

Well, I laid hands on the chick, commanded the devil to get his hands off her eyes, in the name of Jesus, commanded her eyes to be healed, also in the name of Jesus, and she was healed, didn't need her glasses any longer. It was tangible, especially to her. Now, I can't provide you with a medical report. I haven't seen her in over 25 years. Please don't bother stating why this can't possibly be true, I've heard it before.

I did the same for a guys knee at church one day. It was healed right there, and years later, I saw him in some shopping mall, he was all smiles, said his knee had never again bothered him after that day. This is something all believers in Christ can do, if they learn how. It isn't some special spooky anointing available for $9.95 and a packet of my special anointing oil, people are standing by to take your order. Again, I am not asking you to believe this. I have heard the litany of reasons why it couldn't possibly be God. Don't bother. You only have yourself to convince.

Another time, I had a friend whose girlfriend was suffering neck pains. He brought her to me because he had heard I did this sort of thing. She didn't believe it would work. I laid hands on her, commanded the devil to get his hands off her neck in the name of Jesus, commanded her neck to be healed in the name of Jesus, in a casual voice, and said "Now, move your neck around." She was turned her head toward her boyfriend to tell him how stupid this was. However, when she turned her head to pronounce her opinion on how stupid what I did was, she realized she was healed.

Now, realistically, even if I had x-rays, MRI's and a panel of expert witnesses, is it really going to make you say "Wow, that God stuff must be real."?

Its all good and well you saying God has done these things and its up to us to believe them, but i have no reason to believe they actually happened. Lets say a muslim said that they had healed someone through Mohammed. I doubt you would believe this. I doubt you would expect me to just believe this without seeing any evidence. For the same reason you would reject this miracle of islam, i have to reject yours unless i see solid evidence.

People suffering in the world in spite of an omnipotent God is the result of the fact that said omnipotent God delegated authority on Earth to mankind.

So just to check you blame the presence of natural disasters on the sins of man?

Healing and such are not a big, spooky deal, not some exclusive-club membership thing available only to the very holy, the very rich, or the very spiritually weird. It works, just like a 787 taking off works, by set, defined laws. You find out the laws, you apply them, it works.

Great, set, defined laws, lets have them. And dont say its as simple as just believing. I was still a catholic when my Grandma died and dont think i didnt pray for her to get better.

No, just because 19 people, which you have no tangible reliable evidence even existed

No tangible or reliable evidence they existed... i get the feeling you have resorted to just saying things that contradict whay i say just for the sake of argument. We have very reliable evidence they existed, how about ground zero. They happily sent us videos to show they existed saying what they were doing. Again, look this up.

The evidence is written in the Bible.

Ok now im not asking for a lot from you here, just give us the relevant passages of the evidence. You are supposed to be helping people like us so you should be more than happy to provide us with the evidence in this case

Everything evil being present in the world, from a hangnail to nuclear disasters is a result of the original man disobeying God, and rejecting his lordship.

.

Again, this doesnt account for natural disasters.

God abiding by a rule that he himself made does not reduce his omnipotence.

By definition of omnipotence it does.

Hey, take whatever excuse you want! Let the fact that you stubbed your toe be proof that God doesn't exist

No one in this entire thread has mentioned not believing in God because something bad has happened to them, we all say its the same reason we dont believe in unicorns: there just isnt any evidence. Yet some line like this seems to find its way into every one of your posts.

It's funny, people risk their lives on far less evidence. Does every person who engages in immoral sex run their latest conquest through a blood test to ascertain whether he, she, or it has an STD before engaging in high-risk behaviors? Do they say "Show me tangible, visible, concrete evidence that you don't have AIDS before we copulate."? She didn't tell you she had AIDS. And that is proof enough!

It sounds like you have never heard of a condom.

People demand ridiculous manifestations of God's power for their amusement to prove that he's real?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, it has always been this way.

I believed God. Then he has manifested things that can only be explained (by a sane person) as having been done by him.

I have said this all before but you didnt address it so here i go again. This is called the "God of the gaps". If we cant yet understand something, people say God. If you had been born in viking Norway, you would tell us about the magnificent flashes of light that come from the sky, and that we dont yet understand them. So your line would instead read: "The flashes of light can only be explained (by a sane person) as having been done by a God. Lets call this God Thor. You cannot just insert God into a problem we dont yet have an answer to.
Furthermore, if you want to say things that cant be explained must be God, you cant just say "all good things that cant be explained must be God". You have to say its true for ALL things that cant be explained, so you have to say if there is a death we cant explain, God killed them. (again, i dont believe this is true, but if YOU want to grant it for the good, you must also grant it for the evil.

MadPenguin · 2011-10-02, 07:58 AM

I mean, there was pharaoh, on the edge of a sea that had been split open, the sea bed made capable of being walked over by millions, and this by the God that he had made himself an enemy of, and he drives right into it to pursue the people said God had just demanded he set free. You think he might have stopped and said "Wow, now if he just makes the entire sea dry up, or turn into wine, or turn into gold coins, THEN I will realize he is God."? Whatever went through his mind, he pursued, the sea came back down, and he and his entire army were destroyed.

The Egyptians suffered days, possibly weeks of miraculous events and Pharaoh yet hardened his heart. He was eyewitness to greater things than your pagan shamans could ever DREAM of doing. And he still hardened his heart. Did god manifesting vast power change his heart? No.

Evidence please, im not asking for a definitive proof, just some evidence.
If you want to make a claim that defies the laws of the universe, you just have to supply evidence, or anyone can make any claim about anything.

Traak · 2011-10-02, 08:12 AM

What evidence do you have that there was ever a George Washington? Written history.

You believe many things that are just words in books. Without having ever been there or met anyone who was. That's evidence enough, isn't it? Take evolution, for example. People believe in evolution. They say they have evidence. But, unearthing a skeleton, or just a tooth, and stating that it proves evolution? Were they even there when it happened?

Evidence. I'm not almighty. I can't find everyone who has ever gotten healed by God, everywhere. As I said, ask God for evidence. He's almighty, he'll be glad to help you out. If he doesn't, well, then you're off the hook. But to ask a finite servant of an infinite God for evidence of something that you could just as easily ask the infinite God for? Why? So if I don't provide it, you have your excuse not to believe?

Go to the source. Bypass the disciple, and talk to the Master. He's open 24/7. If God doesn't respond to someone who is sincerely interested in knowing if He exists, then he doesn't.

Baneblade · 2011-10-02, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

It wasn't an entrance into an Amazing Supernatural Things Some Doubter Has Witnessed contest. I know people do supernatural things that are not from God. The magicians of pharaoh did similar miracles to Moses for the first few miracles. It's old news to say that the ungodly can also do supernatural things. Thousands of years old.

God doing something for someone that isn't at a ridiculous level of spectacular enough to make you say "Wow, now if that happens twice on a Tuesday, THEN I will believe" isn't what he's about. Sure, God loves everyone. But he can't make them believe anything.

I mean, there was pharaoh, on the edge of a sea that had been split open, the sea bed made capable of being walked over by millions, and this by the God that he had made himself an enemy of, and he drives right into it to pursue the people said God had just demanded he set free. You think he might have stopped and said "Wow, now if he just makes the entire sea dry up, or turn into wine, or turn into gold coins, THEN I will realize he is God."? Whatever went through his mind, he pursued, the sea came back down, and he and his entire army were destroyed.

The Egyptians suffered days, possibly weeks of miraculous events and Pharaoh yet hardened his heart. He was eyewitness to greater things than your pagan shamans could ever DREAM of doing. And he still hardened his heart. Did god manifesting vast power change his heart? No.

And it won't change yours, either.

Gideon challenged god to prove his existance and the proof came. God told us to challenge him, for a blind believer is a fool. Why am I overlooked when I am also not willing to be a blind believer?

In the Bible god had a habit of doing obviously supernatural miracles that leave no question that something is unnaturally accomplished... yet we are supposed to accept that suddenly the evidence of gods power are transcribed words in a book that has been heavily edited and abridged? Or that you are a mutant that can heal other people?

Where are they?

Traak · 2011-10-02, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Gideon challenged god to prove his existance and the proof came. God told us to challenge him, for a blind believer is a fool. Why am I overlooked when I am also not willing to be a blind believer?

You aren't overlooked. Gideon asked for a sign. Note it didn't say that Gideon found a proponent of God's power and demanded that he provide proof. He talked to God himself. As I said, talk to God and ask him to verify his existence. If he doesn't do anything, he doesn't exist. He has verified his existence thousands of times in my life. I have no trouble believing. Go to the source. Me and millions like me did.

However, there is a difference between sincerely seeking God to help you know he is real, and snidely trying to get him to perform tricks for your entertainment.

Luke 4
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Jesus did not laud Thomas for doubting the word of others who reported he was alive, he said that blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believed.

John 20
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I don't have to see God to believe he is real any more than I have to see you to believe you are real. I see your words, I know you are real. How is that so hard?

I have no evidence except your words that you even exist. What evidence do we have that anyone will do anything on our behalf? Our employer says we get paid on Friday. We get paid. Did we demand physical evidence, did we have to see a truck roll up to the bank and put cash in for us? No, we were told something, we believed it.

You operate on what you call "blind faith" all the time. Did you have evidence, an engineering report, that every chair you have ever sat in would not collapse? Yet you blindly sat down, not knowing if there were poisoned punji sticks waiting to impale your glutes. Blind faith again.

Our lives are run by believing stuff we have no way of knowing for sure is real until we put faith in it and act like it is. Do you get out and examine the roads you drive on to verify they aren't cleverly disguised traps, waiting to collapse beneath you? Loaded with IED's waiting to blow you up? No, you blithely drive around without a thought of all that. Blind faith, again.

Do you test every bottle of soda for all known toxins before you imbibe? No, you just open and drink. Blind faith.

And yet, it is so difficult to believe in a God you haven't seen? He went to great lengths to give you a book to read. Just like I am reading your words, and I know you are real, you can read his and know he is real.

If someone on the internet sent death threats to you, and wrote your address to you so you knew he knew where you lived, would you do nothing? Or, again, in blind faith, would you take some precautions? Having nothing but words on a screen as evidence.

Conversely, if you had a winning lottery ticket, would you not rejoice? Having never seen the money, having never met anyone else who had ever won, having never actually touched any evidence that the lottery was real, and that real people actually won it, wouldn't you be glad? Your lottery ticket is just numbers printed on a slip of paper.

God knows all about you, where you live, and everything else, and he made promises to you, and anyone else who cares to partake in his Word. Take him at his Word. See if he fails.

Crator · 2011-10-02, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

What evidence do you have that there was ever a George Washington? Written history.

You believe many things that are just words in books. Without having ever been there or met anyone who was. That's evidence enough, isn't it? Take evolution, for example. People believe in evolution. They say they have evidence. But, unearthing a skeleton, or just a tooth, and stating that it proves evolution? Were they even there when it happened?

Evidence. I'm not almighty. I can't find everyone who has ever gotten healed by God, everywhere. As I said, ask God for evidence. He's almighty, he'll be glad to help you out. If he doesn't, well, then you're off the hook. But to ask a finite servant of an infinite God for evidence of something that you could just as easily ask the infinite God for? Why? So if I don't provide it, you have your excuse not to believe?

Do you understand how the scientific method works? No one just dug up some bones and then claimed that evolution existed. It initially started out as a theory. Then many things were studied, with many pieces of evidence, over long periods of time. In fact, evolution is still a theory currently. A lot has been found via the fossil records and studied from it to come up with the conclusions on the theory that we have today about the subject.

Traak · 2011-10-02, 09:57 AM

Right. It's a theory. Which proves, by the fact that it is a theory, that it does not have enough proof to demonstrate that it is a fact.

So why do people believe it as if it is a fact?

Crator · 2011-10-02, 10:04 AM

Faith Healing doesn't look like it produces very good things. Especially when taken out of context, as it seems you are doing:

Child Fatalities From Religion-motivated Medical Neglect

A few studies have found no proof that faith healing works as well. Ever seen the movie "Leap of Faith"?:

http://www.quackwatch.org/dantest/faith.html
The notion that prayer, divine intervention or the ministrations of an individual healer can cure illness has been popular throughout history. Miraculous recoveries have been attributed to a myriad of techniques commonly lumped together as "faith healing. During the past forty years, several investigators have studied this subject closely and written about their findings.

Crator · 2011-10-02, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

Right. It's a theory. Which proves, by the fact that it is a theory, that it does not have enough proof to demonstrate that it is a fact.

So why do people believe it as if it is a fact?

Ignorance is bliss?

Traak · 2011-10-02, 10:26 AM

As I said. I don't think there is much I am going to say that is really going to change your mind. I am just telling what I believe, and what I have experienced.

Anything God does, people either believe or try to ignore or gloss over. It's been going on for millenia.

John 9
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
17 They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
18 But the **** did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the ****: for the **** had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

Same old same old. Someone gets something from God, people want to prove it isn't true.

As I have been saying, talk to God himself.

God created the universe, created man from the ground, created woman from the man, gave them to each other, gave them a few instructions, they disobeyed the critical one, sin came to the Earth, and with it, death. God promised to send a savior, he did, Jesus came, lived on the Earth, did miracles, was crucified, died spiritually, died physically, went to hell, paid the price for your sin and mine, was raised from the dead after being reborn alive to God again in hell, preached to the spirits who were confined to the upper part of the place of the dead, known as paradise and Abraham's Bosom, they all got born again, some collected their bodies on the way to heaven, and were seen in Jerusalem after Jesus' resurrection, which is when he came and collected his body, then appeared to some people on Earth, and then ascended to heaven.

50 days later, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was sent to dwell in the hearts of born-again men, and that was the start of the church, replete with people speaking in tongues.

Regrettably the Catholic pseudo-church organization gained hold of God's Word and removed it from the hands of the people for about 1000 years, and that was the dark ages. When men could again read the Word of God in their own language, science, technology, and advancements once again started occurring, at a far more rapid rate than ever before in history, because God knows everything, and people who hear from God can come up with ideas that are mere portions of his omniscience more easily than if they can't. This is one reason America came further in 200 years than China has in 5000. America was founded by Christians who acknowledged their need for the providence and guidance of almighty God, China was not.

And that brings us to the present day. No matter how modern we become, God is still God, and still deals with us on the basic issues of life. No amount of transistors or technology will ever make people so they are not people, murder so it is not murder, or love so it is not love. And the Word of God, in its perfect form, is God speaking to man.

Try reading the Bible. The King James, if you aren't stymied by Elizabethan-era English. The New King James is a close second in accuracy. Especially read the New Testament. God is still speaking through his words, and his words are exalted even higher than his very name.

If I wanted to know what someone was like, would it not be a great place to start to read everything they had ever written? Would you think you could develop a complete picture of Hitler's motivations without reading Mein Kampf? What have you got to lose? Valuable time you could instead spend on this forum?

To find out what God's like, read what he said.

Quovatis · 2011-10-02, 11:39 AM

You obviously have no grasp of science if you don't know what a scientific "theory" is. A hypothetical and unproven scientific idea is called a hypothesis. After many tests, experiments, and attempts to disprove it fail, it is promoted to "theory" status. A scientific theory isn't just a guess, it's as close to a fact as science can provide. Evolution is a scientific fact. Scientific observations that can be repeated over and over are called "laws" (e.g. the law of gravity). Evolution can never become a "law" because it doesn't fit the terminology.

How do we know George Washington existed? There are numerous accounts of his existence from people that couldn't care less if he existed or not. The accounts are also first-hand and written while he was living (unlike the bible). There is also physical evidence to support his existence from belonging, to portraits of him, and his descendants.