Nerf the NC MAX.

[rhilir]

the only problem with the nc max is a headshot with the scat max is a instant kill. Remove that and it be just like the other 2 then. That fair.

[Revanmug]

Considering that in Beta, Scatter were in a nerf state for over a month and NC MAX went completly extinct, I wouldn't be surprise if they were unsure what to do with it. The only buff to scatter was tighter spread and 2 additional shells.

They can't balance shotgun. Even less when only a single faction has them and doesn't have anything else. Gauss MG was the answer but they ignored it back then.

[Dkamanus]

Originally Posted by Ruffdog

Dkamanus what armor were those maxes using (kinetic/flak? Level?) And was it recent? Cheers

Also as a question to anyone: how many decimators does it take to drop a max? Let's say with and without flak armor. I put two into a nc max this morning and he was still standing

The video is from January and is fairly accurate from game systems, since nothing related to MAXes has been changed. The first tests were of naked MAXes, with no upgrades besides their standard weapons (Hacksaw and Quasar/Heavy Cycler). The second test was a naked Dual Cycler/Quasar MAX against a dual grinder with extended mags on both and Flak armour 5.

[splooshIRL]

Originally Posted by typhaon

Now the stuttering is gone, I'm absolutely certain that the NC ScatMAX with slugs was nerfed in the patch.

I'm still dangerous, but nowhere near the insta-blicking (rofl poor LA) terror that I was before.

I don't know if it's the accuracy... or the damage... maybe it seems like less damage because I'm hitting less often with both slugs - but, something has changed.

And... of course... there is always the freaky bug where I'll suddenly miss 6-10 shots in a row... despite there being no conceivable way I could actually be missing.

(though I don't think I'm actually missing... I think it's just the infantry version of the AA bug - where you'll see your flak explosins as if it was 'hitting' the ESF - but the ESF is taking no damage.)

agreed, this is my post today on reddit:

I play the NC max a lot and tend to have good accuracy. (83% hit on hacksaws). I'm asking people to give me their experiences with a problem I've noticed in PS2.

Situation #1; guy not moving, normally takes 2-4 hits to kill. Unload 12 shots to kill.

Situation #2; guy is really close to me (max) and I unload 24 shots into them and they survive (sometimes full health).

Situation #3; I'll fire 4 shots and not kill enemy A (perfectly aimed close range "hits"), switch quickly to enemy B (at similar range) and kill them in 4 shots.

If an enemy is moving I disregard these situations because I assume miss or bad hit boxes.... but when enemies are basically not moving (or back peddling slowly) and I'm not getting close range kills it's confusing.... (I do see hit markers and visual shield glow implying impact).

I wonder if it's a max only issue due to a close range dead zone.... but if it's lag then it's happening with all classes. Unfortunately, lag is less obvious an explaination with non-max classes because of the nature of NC recoil =P

Just wondering if I'm the only one noticing this issue... been on my mind about 3 weeks.

thanks

P.S. I only see this problem roughly 1 out of 100ish kills in a max suit and in all the other 99 cases I notice perfect connectivity.

[Graywolves]

Most people would concider something that kills you in one shot without warning OP. Whoever enters a room and finds one is dead, no time to react.

Is there special tactics you can do to take it down? Yeah. Most of my MAX kills are from using C4 on my medic (although recently the game seems to not let me push the button as quickly as I need to).


I think there's some room for balancing. But while the NC MAXs are annoying, at the end of the day there's ways to deal with them and no one seems to capitalize on them very well. At least on Connery.


Instead of a pure nerf just lower the damage and increase effective range slightly.

edit

I play the NC max a lot and tend to have good accuracy. (83% hit on hacksaws). I'm asking people to give me their experiences with a problem I've noticed in PS2.

Situation #1; guy not moving, normally takes 2-4 hits to kill. Unload 12 shots to kill.

Situation #2; guy is really close to me (max) and I unload 24 shots into them and they survive (sometimes full health).

Situation #3; I'll fire 4 shots and not kill enemy A (perfectly aimed close range "hits"), switch quickly to enemy B (at similar range) and kill them in 4 shots.

If an enemy is moving I disregard these situations because I assume miss or bad hit boxes.... but when enemies are basically not moving (or back peddling slowly) and I'm not getting close range kills it's confusing.... (I do see hit markers and visual shield glow implying impact).

I wonder if it's a max only issue due to a close range dead zone.... but if it's lag then it's happening with all classes. Unfortunately, lag is less obvious an explaination with non-max classes because of the nature of NC recoil =P

Just wondering if I'm the only one noticing this issue... been on my mind about 3 weeks.

thanks

P.S. I only see this problem roughly 1 out of 100ish kills in a max suit and in all the other 99 cases I notice perfect connectivity.

I think it's server side. There's a few situations like that I've encountered in big battles. I unload on a guy and he seems to barely shoot at me then in the death screen I see their shields didn't even go down.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by splooshIRL

agreed, this is my post today on reddit:

I play the NC max a lot and tend to have good accuracy. (83% hit on hacksaws). I'm asking people to give me their experiences with a problem I've noticed in PS2.

Situation #1; guy not moving, normally takes 2-4 hits to kill. Unload 12 shots to kill.

Situation #2; guy is really close to me (max) and I unload 24 shots into them and they survive (sometimes full health).

Situation #3; I'll fire 4 shots and not kill enemy A (perfectly aimed close range "hits"), switch quickly to enemy B (at similar range) and kill them in 4 shots.

If an enemy is moving I disregard these situations because I assume miss or bad hit boxes.... but when enemies are basically not moving (or back peddling slowly) and I'm not getting close range kills it's confusing.... (I do see hit markers and visual shield glow implying impact).

I wonder if it's a max only issue due to a close range dead zone.... but if it's lag then it's happening with all classes. Unfortunately, lag is less obvious an explaination with non-max classes because of the nature of NC recoil =P

Just wondering if I'm the only one noticing this issue... been on my mind about 3 weeks.

thanks

P.S. I only see this problem roughly 1 out of 100ish kills in a max suit and in all the other 99 cases I notice perfect connectivity.

I think that this is something to do with the wide spacing of the MAX's guns; creating a "blind spot" directly in front of the MAX. I've certainly noticed this with dual Falcons; it is possible to shoot at someone close up, apparently spot on target, and miss them altogether. And it certainly is common to only have one shot land on target (this is very easy to spot as 2 hits from a salvo get the kill).

[BIGGByran]

Ok, I got tired of reading this thread after page 3. Here is the MAIN POINT EVERYONE should be looking at. The Magriders got Nerfed because of it's Tank Vs Tank K/D ratio. The nerf is suppose to put it in balance with other tanks.

If you want to nerf the NC Max. Compare it's K/D with other Max and not Infantry. It is like compairing Magriders/Vangaurd/Prowler' survivability with a Liberator with a 150 Dalton.

Maybe we should nerf the Magrider/Vangaurd/Prowlers because my HA can't kill it and my K/D ratio is 0.000000000001 on a 1v1 fight. (And I got the 0.000000000001 because the guy in the tank went to go take a sh!t)

I fought a 1v1 fight with TR Max and it was alway a close fight. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. (Btw I have Scatter and Grinder(Extended Mag)

[ShadetheDruid]

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

If you want to nerf the NC Max. Compare it's K/D with other Max and not Infantry. It is like compairing Magriders/Vangaurd/Prowler' survivability with a Liberator with a 150 Dalton.

It's been said somewhere before (I think by Higby?), MAX vs MAX K/D would be pointless because most MAXes are killed by infantry, not other MAXes.

[Maniya]

Max vs Max is quite rare and (situational*EDITED) so KD compare on that would be pointless nor enough data to compare, im afraid. Unless they are fool enough to engage battle against other maxes then well... if thats the case, is that information worth to look at?

[BIGGByran]

is there a Max Vs Inf K/D Ratio?

[ShadetheDruid]

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

is there a Max Vs Inf K/D Ratio?

SOE has a bunch of data on random stuff, so they probably do have it somewhere. I don't think it's ever been posted up until now though.

[thegreekboy]

Hacksaw:
7 shot clip which can be emptied in 1.4 seconds for 6006 damage (not counting headshots).
6006/1.4=4,290 damage per second when firing.
add in the 4 second reload time and it has a 1112 damage per second for sustained fire.

Mercy:
50 shot clip which can be emptied in 7.1 seconds for 7150 damage (not counting headshots).
7150/7.1=1,007 damage per second when firing.
add in the 3 second reload time and it has a 708 damage per second for sustained fire.

Cosmos:
75 shot clip which can be emptied in 13.35 seconds for 12,525 damage (not counting headshots).
12,525/13.35=938 damage per second when firing
add in the 3.3 second reload time and it has a 752 damage per second for sustained fire.

Lets take a look at 1 hacksaw max vs 2 mercy maxes at once.
The 2 mercy maxes fire on the hacksaw max for (2) 1007 dps x 1.4 seconds = 2820 damage
The hacksaw max fires on one mercy max for 4290 dps x 1.4 seconds = 6006 damage killing it

the hacksaw reloads for 4 seconds taking 1007 dps x 4 seconds = 4028 damage killing it
OR 1410
the hacksaw took cover while reloading and was shot less than .9 seconds of the 4 seconds he was reloading then he can kill the second mercy max as well and live.

If the mercy maxes didn't double team the hacksaw, but instead went in staggered for 1v1 scenarios, it would take a 4th mercy max in a row to kill the hacksaw. The hacksaw would destroy the first 3 mercy maxes.

The DPS also plays a role when there are engineers repairing the MAX. This makes a higher DPS much much more effective because the engineer repairs remove a flat amount of dps.
By default a hacksaw max will kill a mercy max in 1.2 seconds. A mercy max will kill a hacksaw max in 5.1 seconds.
Lets say engineers repair 500 health per second, this means that the Mercy will only do 500 DPS to the hacksaw while the hacksaw will do 3,729 DPS to the mercy.
This also means that the mercy max will still die in 1.4 seconds to the hacksaw max. However, it will now take the mercy max 10 seconds to kill the hacksaw max.

How can this be fixed?
The NC Maxes sustained DPS is still the highest, but it isn't OP.
The problem is only that the rate of fire on the NC Maxes is too quick. It needs to be increased by 1/4 of a second per shot. The amount that this increases the time to empty a clip then needs to be subtracted from the reload speed to keep the sustained dps the same.

It should take the hacksaw 3.15 seconds to empty its clip, bringing its dps down to 1906 (which is still almost double TR and VS). It then needs its reload speed lowered to 2.25seconds to keep its sustained DPS the same as it is currently.
This still keeps NC Maxes the best maxes, however they are only 2x as good now rather than 4x as good...

This would make the changed Hacksaw:
7 shot clip which can be emptied in 3.15 seconds for 6006 damage (not counting headshots).
6006/3.15=1,906 damage per second when firing.
add in the 2.25 second reload time and it has a 1112 damage per second for sustained fire.

TLDR:
Hacksaw does 4300 DPS / 1000 DPS sustained
Mercy does 1000 DPS / 700 DPS sustained
Cosmos does 900 DPS / 750 DPS sustained

The Hacksaw should be nerfed to deal 2k DPS but not change its sustained 1k DPS.
SOE can do this by increasing the refire time on each NC shotgun by 250ms(1/4 of a second) and lowering it's reload speed to 2.25 seconds.

[maradine]

I haven't done the math recently, but I think the Nebula is the lobster claw you want to use for this comparison. Also, isn't the fastest MAX TTK via an A/V weapon? Or have they lost their massive A/I soak?

[Bravix]

Originally Posted by maradine

I haven't done the math recently, but I think the Nebula is the lobster claw you want to use for this comparison. Also, isn't the fastest MAX TTK via an A/V weapon? Or have they lost their massive A/I soak?

No, you want to use the Burster. Why use the VS shitty AI when you can use a burster and do almost as good, while clearing the skies at the same time!

[BIGGByran]

@thegreekboy
The numbers you produce are assuming all shots hit and are only under ideal situation. Need to do a field test like the video posted before us.