Higby on Magriders - Page 8

Bear · 2013-02-19, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by psijaka

Yeah, my guess is that they cocked things up and plugged the same data set into excel or whatever they used to produce the graphs.

Doubt that this affects the main graph at the top though, but it does devalue the data somewhat if they can't get this right.

Unless of course the corrected data looks even worse!

Assist · 2013-02-19, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrec

Absolutely not. IF Magriders were being spawned at double the rate of either of the other two tanks, across all servers at all times, THAT in itself is an indication that something is wrong. It is captured in the statistics.

Data mining a data set to define WHAT is wrong is an art. Almost anyone can manipulate statistics to show what they want to show.

But you look at trends before a change, and trends after a change.... with a large sample size, it proves that the thing that was changed WAS or WAS NOT affecting the results in a significant way.

You keep going on about how Magriders had way more numbers and that was "the problem". That's pretty shallow. Did you ever ask yourself WHY did Magriders have more population with respect to other tanks? Obviously not, because that would imply there is something about them that is superior.

You can't just throw out data you don't like because you don't approve of what it implies.

I've never stated that the Magrider wasn't better than the other tanks pre-patch, outside of true 1v1 MBT. The Magrider was clearly better, my interpretation is that it's K;D numbers are sorely based on the number of MBT's spawned by each faction. I don't see how they cannot be based on that. I don't believe the way they changed them is the correct way to do it, as it made them completely unappealing which in part has lead to the population drops for VS. I know why they were spawned more often and I believe it's because they were more unique because they could get anywhere(and still can). The problem is now they're a bitch to drive in actual combat, but it appears that Higby and SoE have finally acknowledged that (wish they'd read my posts sometime rather than him having to do it on his day off!) Unless of course you guys don't believe dramatic changes in acceleration and velocity don't effect combat, in which case continue whining like you know anything about the Magrider.

Until I see the MBT's spawned by faction over that same period these K/D numbers are really irrelevant. They don't state the actual balance between the MBT's. I think it was posted at one point that the Magrider was killed nearly twice as much by infantry as the other MBT's, does that mean the Magrider needs a buff vs. Infantry? I sure as hell think not, but using the same exact data you can come to the same conclusion because the numbers of MBT's aren't stated.

Whatever though, you guys can continue to ignore me like before. Eventually the truth of the changes will come out and people will realize that changing the Magrider this way was not good for the game. Fact is I've been right about what I've said about the Magrider and I'm right about this, disagree all you want just like the tools in the other Magrider threads but in the end it'll come out again just like it did this time on maneuverability.

Originally Posted by Bear

Unless of course the corrected data looks even worse!

Except it doesn't, it actually portrays the Prowler quite a bit better than the previous image.

Bear · 2013-02-19, 01:18 PM

LOL, it's hard to imagine but I think the "corrected" graph shows the disparity being even larger!

Here's a link to Higby's updated post.
http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...ability.95479/

Edit:
Damn, I can't find yesterday's graph. I wanted to do a side by side to see if the delta was statistically significant. It's been a while since I played with correlation coefficients!

psijaka · 2013-02-19, 01:26 PM

Thanks Bear.

The more I look at these graphs, especially the Mag v Pro and the Mag v Van, the more obscene the pre-balance Magrider becomes. People are deluding themselves if they think that this wasn't a major problem.

Edit - and congratulations to SoE for taking effective action.

ringring · 2013-02-19, 01:29 PM

Higby just posted another picture showing no of tanks used per day.

It shows consistently TR using most, then NC then VS.

What does this mean? Perhaps TR use tanks more or perhaps TR have to get a new one more often because their previous one has been destroyed - and the reverse for VS.

IDK - interpretation of these stats is all ans as I have said previously I'd like to see a longer period before any further changes to allow use to settle down a bitr and people work out what is best for them.

But, it may well be that this is about as balanced as you can get.

Assist · 2013-02-19, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

LOL, it's hard to imagine but I think the "corrected" graph shows the disparity being even larger!

Here's a link to Higby's updated post.
http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...ability.95479/

Yeah you're having trouble reading that graph. Before it was identical to the Vanguard, now it's showing better than the Magrider. Notice the red bar is above the purple bar for the end of the TR graph, and the purple bar is above the blue bar for the NC graph. According to that graph, for the last 7 days the Prowler is quite a bit better than the Magrider or Vanguard.

Rumblepit · 2013-02-19, 01:33 PM

lol its not the magriders...... its people who play nc and tr,we suuck.... we all need to l2p and they need to revert the mag back to the way it was.

Kerrec · 2013-02-19, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

I've never stated that the Magrider wasn't better than the other tanks pre-patch, outside of true 1v1 MBT. The Magrider was clearly better, my interpretation is that it's K;D numbers are sorely based on the number of MBT's spawned by each faction. I don't see how they cannot be based on that. I don't believe the way they changed them is the correct way to do it, as it made them completely unappealing which in part has lead to the population drops for VS. I know why they were spawned more often and I believe it's because they were more unique because they could get anywhere(and still can). The problem is now they're a bitch to drive in actual combat, but it appears that Higby and SoE have finally acknowledged that (wish they'd read my posts sometime rather than him having to do it on his day off!) Unless of course you guys don't believe dramatic changes in acceleration and velocity don't effect combat, in which case continue whining like you know anything about the Magrider.

Until I see the MBT's spawned by faction over that same period these K/D numbers are really irrelevant. They don't state the actual balance between the MBT's. I think it was posted at one point that the Magrider was killed nearly twice as much by infantry as the other MBT's, does that mean the Magrider needs a buff vs. Infantry? I sure as hell think not, but using the same exact data you can come to the same conclusion because the numbers of MBT's aren't stated.

Whatever though, you guys can continue to ignore me like before. Eventually the truth of the changes will come out and people will realize that changing the Magrider this way was not good for the game. Fact is I've been right about what I've said about the Magrider and I'm right about this, disagree all you want just like the tools in the other Magrider threads but in the end it'll come out again just like it did this time on maneuverability.

Except it doesn't, it actually portrays the Prowler quite a bit better than the previous image.

What you are saying is in no way reflected in the new data. The before and after...

VS populations tanked. It is probably safe to say that Magriders are NOT being pulled at the same ratios as before. It is much more likely that they are being pulled at the same rate or maybe even below... can't be that precise. Lets just establish that they are not being pulled nearly as much as before.

Now you state that the numbers were skewed because there were too many Magriders. If that was what caused the Magrider to be OP, or if that was what caused the graph to be invalid (prior to the changes), then that would be reflected in the data AFTER the changes. Alot fewer Magriders, by your assertion, would underperform.

But they are not. They have nearly 1:1:1 KD. What you claim is the "cause" is not reflected in the "effect". If what you said was true, then a Nerf + Population decrease should have caused the Magrider to underperform after the changes. Yet that is NOT true. Therefore, your theory is wrong.

ChipMHazard · 2013-02-19, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

Yeah you're having trouble reading that graph. Before it was identical to the Vanguard, now it's showing better than the Magrider. Notice the red bar is above the purple bar for the end of the TR graph, and the purple bar is above the blue bar for the NC graph. According to that graph, for the last 7 days the Prowler is quite a bit better than the Magrider or Vanguard.

Pre-patch the Prowler was doing slighty worse against Magriders than the Vanguards. But yes the Prowler is now a bit better off against the Magrider, as in it has a slightly higher k/d.

psijaka · 2013-02-19, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

Yeah you're having trouble reading that graph. Before it was identical to the Vanguard, now it's showing better than the Magrider. Notice the red bar is above the purple bar for the end of the TR graph, and the purple bar is above the blue bar for the NC graph. According to that graph, for the last 7 days the Prowler is quite a bit better than the Magrider or Vanguard.

The updated graphs suggest that the Prowler is marginally better against the Magrider, and marginally better than the Vanguard in tank v tank encounters. We have nothing like the total dominance that the Magrider once had.

So based on tank v tank encounters, SoE have just about got things right; a minor nerf to the Prowler being all that is required.

Of course, they do need to consider the MBTs effectiveness against infantry, and I suspect that there are some balancing issues to be resolved here.

Edit - Mag v Vanguard looks pretty even to me.

Hamma · 2013-02-19, 01:43 PM

I've added the various graphs to our Twitter Media Library:

MBT's Pulled per Day:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media.php?view=2304

MBT K/D:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media.php?view=2304

Kerrec · 2013-02-19, 01:47 PM

OMG. I was in agreement with Assist, that the VS pulled tons more MBT's than the other factions. But THIS...

It has to be a mistake. Or TR & NC armor went out of their way to avoid VS armor.

ChipMHazard · 2013-02-19, 01:47 PM

So the Magrider was never actually pulled in greater numbers than the Prowler, at least not in the the graph's time frame.
Funny enough the amount of MBTs are now closer to each other than before, I actually would have thought that there would be fewer Magriders post-patch.

Graywolves · 2013-02-19, 01:49 PM

So the Prowler is outperforming the Vanguard by a bit (not nearly as much as magrider was before). And barely outperforming the Magrider.

The graph actually makes me surprised I ever pulled a Prowler before GU2

Revanmug · 2013-02-19, 01:50 PM

Now, I'm kind of wondering what's Assist next excuse.