AA max VS Sky guard! Why they must be changed. - Page 8

snafus · 2013-06-17, 05:55 PM

Glad the devs are finnally working towards fixing the AA balance. We'll just have to wait and see if it pans out in a fair manner or still be broken. I'm also impressed about the shear ignorance some people continue to show about air's capabilities. Really wish some of you nay sayers to AA being OP please fly some and then get back with us.

CrankyTRex · 2013-06-17, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by snafus

Glad the devs are finnally working towards fixing the AA balance. We'll just have to wait and see if it pans out in a fair manner or still be broken. I'm also impressed about the shear ignorance some people continue to show about air's capabilities. Really wish some of you nay sayers to AA being OP please fly some and then get back with us.

Eh, infantry have been complaining about air power since BF1942. These things could be shooting chickens at people and they'd still complain.

maradine · 2013-06-17, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by snafus

Glad the devs are finnally working towards fixing the AA balance. We'll just have to wait and see if it pans out in a fair manner or still be broken. I'm also impressed about the shear ignorance some people continue to show about air's capabilities. Really wish some of you nay sayers to AA being OP please fly some and then get back with us.

I fly a great deal, with considerable success. I am a pilot before any other role. I still think a return to AirSide is a bad idea. It's why I run an AA outfit.

This isn't a question of who's ignorant, who's good, who's bad - it's an issue of which percentage of your population you want perma-disgruntled. Clearly, there won't be a state where both sides are happy.

edit: I suppose I should say I doubt there's a state where both are happy. It would still be nice if it happened.

KesTro · 2013-06-17, 08:22 PM

Awesome changes with the skyguards and bursters coming up. If you want to be able to keep air off your team before they're already on top of you, you should have to commit to it.

CrankyTRex · 2013-06-17, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

I fly a great deal, with considerable success. I am a pilot before any other role. I still think a return to AirSide is a bad idea. It's why I run an AA outfit.

This isn't a question of who's ignorant, who's good, who's bad - it's an issue of which percentage of your population you want perma-disgruntled. Clearly, there won't be a state where both sides are happy.

edit: I suppose I should say I doubt there's a state where both are happy. It would still be nice if it happened.

So long as the focus is on fooling with the stats of the weapons and armor, probably not.

Unreal Tournament 2004 is the only game that pulled it off that I know of, but it had a lot of mechanics and level design decisions that PS2 can't really adopt. It also didn't have to deal with unlocks.

Dodgy Commando · 2013-06-18, 04:33 AM

I dunno what PS2 game some people have been playing if they haven't seen the kind of damage a single Burster MAX can do to an ESF. Sure he won't kill it outright if the pilot escapes as soon as he's hit, but its pretty impressive nonetheless and you WILL kill the ESF if he stays there.

Now I don't have a problem with that. Nor do the devs it would seem, as the change is aimed at reducing its effective range. How is this promoting a return to Airside?

Once again, I would also like to state that I fly a Reaver but it is not my main playstyle in the game. I even sometimes go an entire session without getting into it. Yet I still feel this is a good change for a previously bad state of affairs. I certainly don't feel like I'm whining, in fact I couldn't care less in terms of how I play. We could leave it as is and it wouldn't especially matter to me. However I find that it makes more sense now, with the changes (we'll have to see how it actually works out of course), and so I contribute my opinion on the matter.

SolLeks · 2013-06-18, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by maradine

I fly a great deal, with considerable success. I am a pilot before any other role. I still think a return to AirSide is a bad idea. It's why I run an AA outfit.

This isn't a question of who's ignorant, who's good, who's bad - it's an issue of which percentage of your population you want perma-disgruntled. Clearly, there won't be a state where both sides are happy.

edit: I suppose I should say I doubt there's a state where both are happy. It would still be nice if it happened.

We are not returing to air-side. ESF will still get wasted by bursters like normal if they are within infintry render (about 300m) however the bursters will no longer be able to reach out and touch flyers that have nothing to do with the ground.

The skygaurd will be more accurate as well, they rip through aircraft currently and now they will have the range to defend themselves and their tank convoies. Flack will still be a large problem, just not from 3 hexes away.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-06-18, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

We are not returing to air-side. ESF will still get wasted by bursters like normal if they are within infintry render (about 300m) however the bursters will no longer be able to reach out and touch flyers that have nothing to do with the ground.

The skygaurd will be more accurate as well, they rip through aircraft currently and now they will have the range to defend themselves and their tank convoies. Flack will still be a large problem, just not from 3 hexes away.

I really hope that it works out like you say. Because I dont think it will.

snafus · 2013-06-18, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I really hope that it works out like you say. Because I dont think it will.

I got money on that a lot of people will be enjoying farming aircraft with the new skyguards.

Wahooo · 2013-06-18, 12:59 PM

Until skyguards can have a driver and a gunner they will won't be as effective as they are supposed to be. You just can't look up and drive a tank at the same time.

I'm not even sure the range on the bursters is that big a deal. I land a few shots on planes that are at a distance, unless they are hovering. Any plane that is moving is a fairly safe plane and honestly I don't even bother with an ESF that far out, unless it is already stationary. Libs I'll start shooting early because a lib that is close WILL kill a burster before the burster can do significant damage.

I still kinda think the bigger issue is just the concentration of bases. The range you can shoot is not bad, but having 3 bases in viewing distance of the flak giver makes it so there is no where to go to avoid the AA. It is that it is somehow a constant that makes it rough.

I hope they change the spotting for flack, not sure it was intentional or not but at release and for a while when burster range was less, you couldn't spot an aircraft that was out of range... I want that back so I know if I can't spot it I can't hit it don't bother firing.

maradine · 2013-06-18, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by snafus

I got money on that a lot of people will be enjoying farming aircraft with the new skyguards.

If its a return to beta Skyguard, you betcha. I don't think that's in the cards, though. Happy to be surprised.

Chaff · 2013-06-18, 05:11 PM

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I tend to see a 300m range limit on the Bursters are drastically reducing their effectiveness. The amount of Bursters being spawned will nosedive accordingly. Air POP will then (re)grow accordingly.

Part of what made Bursters effective (and a tad OP) was they could reach-out-and-touch ESF at RANGE ..... BEFORE they could get close enough to rocket spam them into nanite rubble, or force them to stay hidden inside. If an AA Max can't go outside for more than 5 or 10 seconds, there will be no point in spawning one. There's still a point to spawning AA (Max), but it will be too frustrating for each individual player who uses his resources, & dies before he can empty one clip.

Time will tell.

I thought the Ground-vs-Air balance was good ..... as far as HOW MANY ESFs tended to be in the sky from hour to hour. Nerfing Bursters this much seems to be an overcompensation & miscalculation.

Sometimes it seems Pilots don't feel they're having fun until their Klll Streaks pass 20 or 30. It's a better game if their Killl Streaks tend to stay under 10. EVERYONE should be subjected to an occasional insta-death.

I'd like to see some R&D go into the Skyguard. 2-man Variant would be great.

ADD-IN a rather steep Cert Tree .... for both the Skyguard Gunner, and the Skyguard Driver. If a guy invests certs into Skyguard Gunner, he would gain slight, and then eventually modest gains in range, rof, accuracy, .......
The dedicated Skyguard Driver could Cert-Up his Reload speed, range, ammo quantity, and armor ..... perhaps even Cert-Up to a higher grade of AA shell-ammo.

These "Specialized Skyguard Teams" could be a real asset to armor convoys or air suppression anywhere an Air Zerg may want to insert its presence. It would require a major commitment of Certs - and hopefully this would reward the few who went this route with something truly special, unique, rewarding, and uselful, ... while significantly limiting the quantity of these on the battle field.

Hell, keep the Skyguard "AS IS" .... relatively useless ... but there for the player who will always prefer to "solo"

ADD a AA-Bank to the MBT. Require a dedicated driver, dedicated Gunner, and perhaps a 3rd seat for AI counters & assistance with target spotting ......

Killl the Burster if you must, but offer a viable option for Air Suppression.

So many guys run Bursters, that I imagine quite a few Max Jockeys will be bent that much of their Certs are now in jeopardy of becoming pretty much worthless.

Sony can't keep Nerfing entire Cert Trees, or major Cert-branches into the garbage heap. They'll eventually lose players (er, customers).

HINT:
* * * ATTENTION * * *
ALLOW COMPLETE RECERTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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MrMak · 2013-06-18, 06:04 PM

Becouse MAXes,especialy with Flak armor, die SO FAST......

Also just becouse you cant effectivaly engadge it yet doesnt mean you cant see the frigin aircraft coming and be ready to shoot it once it gets close.

Why is it people always go from one extreme to the next? BURSTERS ARE NOT DISAPEARING OR SWAPING AMMUNITION TO NERF DARTS. Now they will actualy have to be near the spot he aircraft is trying to strafe rather than "in the general area.

Thats what Skyguards and base turrets are supose to be for.

snafus · 2013-06-18, 06:38 PM

Well get those tin foil hats on ladies, like it or not changes are coming to the AA balance. Guess we will just have to wait and see which way the cards fall for either party. I just hope it is somewhat fair for both ground and air.

Chewy · 2013-06-18, 07:13 PM

The way I see changes is that if Skyguards are to be the main things to keep air at bay then there needs to be more ways/places to pull Skyguards at costs that compare to air. It's true that most anywhere you can get air you can get a skyguard, but air can go anywhere while skyguards can not.

Attackers always will need a way to protect their AMSs from air. Lower Burster range then EFS and libs can hover at distance and spam rockets/shells or pepper with shredders and nose guns. Shredders already ruin vehicles at ranges bursters have problems with. Lock-ons will be required more than ever now.

Maybe if vehicle costs depended on what weapons it has instead of a flat rate for all. Say if you go for a general use makeup it costs full (HEAT, Viper, ect) but special order (skyguard, AP, ect) and costs are lower. Then you add costs for the gunner seat so that lightnings and harassers can stay cheaper than MBTs. Flashes can also be great from this. Stock A to B flash 50res, weaponized flash with cloak 150. Could even add costs for options like smoke, auto repair, and what not.