AGN: Community Clash Recording TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW - Page 9

TorinPS · 2013-09-27, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

Stacking is stacking. It doesn't matter if outfits are bringing in players because they play together often. If it's to become the norm to bring in whoever you need, then these matches should not be advertised as "X outfit vs Y outfit" any longer, as they are not true representations of such.

There is 'Stacking' and then there is 'STACKING'.

Every competitive team I know of, 'Stacks' to the greatest extent possible. 'Stacking' can be loosely defined as recruiting the best people possible to create the strongest team possible. In professional sports, this is done via a draft. Every team aims to create the most potent roster possible, stacked with the most talent possible. In Planetside, this is mostly assumed that higher level competitive teams have recruited, if not actively (hey you are good will you join my outfit?), at least passively. (people wanting to join because they are good and you are good, etc.) TGWW had a mix of both over the many months we've been playing as an outfit. There were a handful of people that always played with us, on VS or NC or TR, and were simply not formally added to the outfit. As talks of competitive gameplay came about, we all basically committed to being on the same team. That team turned out to be TGWW.

Then there is 'STACKING', which is the act of creating the most powerful team possible, not over time, not through functional recruiting efforts, but some essentially 'back-room' or 'under-handed' "hey, come join our outfit for a day so you can be a ringer for us". This usually involves knowing all the best people and being 'in good enough' with them that they would be willing to 'go undercover' and join your team in an effort to create an overpowered team for no other purpose than having an overpowered team. This is the type of deceitful roster building that the RCCC rule was aiming to eliminate. This is absolutely not what TGWW has been doing, at all.

NUC has been 'Stacking' for quite some time. They recruit a lot of the best people on Waterson, TR, NC or VS, get them to join NUC as a permanent member. They've got a lot of great players. When NUC played in the RCCC, nobody bitched and moaned about them having recruited a bunch of good people.

We only caught this drama because:

1) Some dudes in MERC and/or TXR were butthurt about a scrim loss, and it's easier to blame someone else than acknowledge reality. To be fair to like 99% of them, this was definitely an exception.
2) We only technically added people to the TGWW outfit at the last minute, in an attempt to make it within what we perceived as some people's inevitably interpretation of the rule. We've all played together for a long time, and have been a competitive group for many many months. We just only recently formalized it by making sure everyone was technically an outfit member.

If you think part 2 is 'STACKING', then I'm sorry you can't come to terms with reality.

EVILPIG · 2013-09-27, 04:04 PM

Giving that I have only stated my general opinion on the issue of stacking and I have not directed anything at any particular outfit, I fail to see why some here continue to be defensive and take my comments as directed at them. The rules are also very clear and some of these attempts to justify what may or may not be legitimate are, while entertaining, sad.

As I said, if outfits are going to just bring in whoever they feel they need to stack their team for a match, I don't think the matches should be presented as just those outfits.

Additionally, I will add a disclaimer that this is not directed towards any particular outfit, but is my opinion on the matter. I require no defensive replies and welcome any open debate on the issue. I have seen nothing in this thread that can justify what is basically "barrowing" talent to increase your odds of winning. I do have to ask why outfits cannot just show up and represent themselves in the name of fun?

TorinPS · 2013-09-27, 04:09 PM

We did just show up and represent ourselves in the name of fun. Nobody was 'borrowed' from another outfit.

You say you are not directing this at anyone, and asking why we are getting defensive. The answer is, because for the past 24 hours, we've had to defend ourselves against claims made that we are cheating, breaking the rules, etc. It has been clarified by RCCC that we were not, or at least the rule was not meant to be binding like that.

We brought our competitive group to the match under the TGWW tag. Vast majority of people had it, the few that had no outfit, but played with us, we gave them the tag as a formality. Some people saw this as 'STACKING', we see it as playing with people that 'should' have been in the outfit all along.

I personally agree that 'STACKING' is bad. I don't see any issue with 'Stacking' aka Recruiting. If you want to make a competitive outfit, you recruit or accept in, good people. When you have to play competitively, you pick a good, competitive roster. That's all we did, and we got shit for it.

EVILPIG · 2013-09-27, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by TorinPS

I personally agree that 'STACKING' is bad. I don't see any issue with 'Stacking' aka Recruiting. If you want to make a competitive outfit, you recruit or accept in, good people. When you have to play competitively, you pick a good, competitive roster.

This is all you needed to post. As I said, I am not speaking of you or anyone else. I am speaking of the issue.

Dreadnaut · 2013-09-27, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by TorinPS

We brought our competitive group to the match under the TGWW tag. Vast majority of people had it, the few that had no outfit, but played with us, we gave them the tag as a formality. Some people saw this as 'STACKING', we see it as playing with people that 'should' have been in the outfit all along.

Many of them WERE in the outfit, and I booted them out because they were sub BR 60 and I was seeing how high our outfit ranking would go on PSU without the lower level members. You don't recruit the best players by having your outfit appear at bottom of the list because you only run 30ish members. I'd take some skilled BR 30's over many many BR 100's I see that only got that high as a ScatMax or a Zepher whore before the nerf. Battle Rank means NOTHING except in this silly ranking that happens on stats websites.

So, it's all my fault, I'm the selfish asshole that wanted to see my outfit at the top of the leaderboards so I kicked out all the lower level members to trim the outfit down to approx 32-36 members. The same low level guys were STILL flying with us regardless of having or not having the TGWW tag.

It was stupid formality I had to reinvite them for the event, and I'll likely kick them out of the outfit again so our rank goes back up to where it should be. Why do you ask? Because right now rank is ONLY determined by average Experience which is a reflection of Battle Rank.

It's arbitrary, it's dumb, but that's what's going on behind the curtain.

Phrygen · 2013-09-27, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by TorinPS

We did just show up and represent ourselves in the name of fun. Nobody was 'borrowed' from another outfit.

You say you are not directing this at anyone, and asking why we are getting defensive. The answer is, because for the past 24 hours, we've had to defend ourselves against claims made that we are cheating, breaking the rules, etc. It has been clarified by RCCC that we were not, or at least the rule was not meant to be binding like that.

We brought our competitive group to the match under the TGWW tag. Vast majority of people had it, the few that had no outfit, but played with us, we gave them the tag as a formality. Some people saw this as 'STACKING', we see it as playing with people that 'should' have been in the outfit all along.

I personally agree that 'STACKING' is bad. I don't see any issue with 'Stacking' aka Recruiting. If you want to make a competitive outfit, you recruit or accept in, good people. When you have to play competitively, you pick a good, competitive roster. That's all we did, and we got shit for it.

I think its a shame that TGWW and QRY are getting so much flak for this, but it not to be completely unexpected. Had i not played for a month and saw the names of players in the clash, I would have thought "why are there NC and TR playing with TGWW" even though i know those players have alts. Its a natural reaction, but is being followed by overly negative and accusatory responses directed towards a small group of people.

NUC, FTC, DVS, DA etc have been recruiting top talent from other factions and servers since the game started. Good on them. Mattherson top pilots have been forming a community for the last year. Good on them as well.

The larger issues that should be view from this clash are things like: How imbalanced teams negatively affect the play and spectating experience, the potentially imbalanced power of air in 48v48 match ups, the size of the nexus, resource systems in nexus etc.

The thing that concerns me is that, if you look at mattherson for example, all the best pilots are basically a tight knit group, and eventually they will have to choose a team for MLG in theory. The result of all that talent going to one place, is that i can not think of another team on mattherson currently that could field 48 people and compete in the nexus against FTC,NUC etc, without using these same pilots.

When you look at other E-sports, the competitive scene may in fact be made up of 50-150 players spread out on all the teams in the league, and that is for games with very large player bases. PS2 needs 48 people just to make one team. When all the best players decide to play on the same few teams, the reality is that there may be no one left to play against them. Of course this is all theory currently, but that is my greatest concern. When i view DA's stat site and i see that MLG score, i don't get offend or impressed (as others have described their reactions). I see the basis of a salary cap for teams, though i highly doubt anyone will accept that.

Selentic · 2013-09-27, 05:22 PM

I'm not sure how much more I can stand to see it be explained that, "that is our mlg lineup, that has been our planned mlg lineup for months, and this match was what finally got everyone together", before I just fucking lose my mind. Are there seriously that many tears over us winning a scrim that has no bearing on anything, because this is just getting sad.

Deringer · 2013-09-27, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by retrogreq

No offense, but that was the fault of the camera crew. One of them admitted in the stream he didn't have a clue about air, and didn't know how to film it properly...one of the other broadcasters jokingly said to follow the explosions.

We have names dammit!

*Runs off crying to his room*

TorinPS · 2013-09-27, 05:29 PM

Damnit retrogreq, now you made Deringer sad.

Phrygen · 2013-09-27, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Selentic

I'm not sure how much more I can stand to see it be explained that, "that is our mlg lineup, that has been our planned mlg lineup for months, and this match was what finally got everyone together", before I just fucking lose my mind. Are there seriously that many tears over us winning a scrim that has no bearing on anything, because this is just getting sad.

So before I ask this question, i'm going to say again, for the record, i have no issues with how the RCCC went or with the players that were included. I also don't think that TGWW should be accused of foul play.

That said, here is the question. Does the "mlg lineup, that has been our planned mlg lineup for months" have a name, a roster of character names (rather than player names), or a faction? Generally those are the things that define a team. Just seems to me like some of those decisions have yet to be made for some of the pilots, and while that is completely understandable, it can result in confusion by other community members.

Karzi · 2013-09-27, 08:27 PM

TL DR after 3 pages of Merc and the other outfit ( see already forgot the name) of whining "MIMIMIMIMI you brought better pilots" i had enough.
wow , you guys really think that mlg gives a damn about factions? You really think that? Not at all. You think that faction should stop of teams forming up? You really think that?
Not at all. I play with the whales and other air player all over mattherson because i am not bound by a faction to choose to play for , i chose to play for who i want to , doesnt matter if they are vs nc or tr .
And dont try to blame your ass beating on the fact that we brought other piltos in . You kids pulled like 20 to 30 mossies with lock ons , forming an giant air zerg which was no fun at all , getting owned by better pilots and you could have brought in anybody you want , wouldnt have made a difference.

You got beaten by the better players and now you try to cry about it. GG , way to be a competive player.
Here is how MLG is gonna be :
Teams will form up under one Name , a Faction BUT it wont be limited to join from other people of other factions. It would be stupid because as well as in proffesinal sports , there is a player "trading /swapping "between teams , doesnt matter what SOE says , MLG has the last word or there just wont be a competive PS2.
Mlg is not about feeling and "honor" MLG is about the best team fighting the best team , and if you dont like it , dont worry my sponsor " Uninstall wizard" will help you there.
Can you now grew some balls and enjoy your tomcats on your "1337" server? K thanks bai

@RCCC , get somebody on the Reachcast for air commentary , and get a thrid observer cam up for that.
You had 1 for the north side one for the south side , but just for air combats , and well you guys dont understand much from air ( no offense).
There was a situation when there was really good fight going on , but the cam was on 1 TR guy ghost capping a base , while planes blew up above them.

But just dont get MattiAce , kid is a bad pilot who only puts his easy wins on youtube , neither me cause i am rated IAMLASK for insane and most likely a serial killer.

TorinPS · 2013-09-27, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Karzi

But just dont get MattiAce , kid is a bad pilot who only puts his easy wins on youtube , neither me cause i am rated IAMLASK for insane and most likely a serial killer.

Agreed, most likely a serial killer.

Rumblepit · 2013-09-27, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Karzi

TL DR after 3 pages of Merc and the other outfit ( see already forgot the name) of whining "MIMIMIMIMI you brought better pilots" i had enough.
wow , you guys really think that mlg gives a damn about factions? You really think that? Not at all. You think that faction should stop of teams forming up? You really think that?
Not at all. I play with the whales and other air player all over mattherson because i am not bound by a faction to choose to play for , i chose to play for who i want to , doesnt matter if they are vs nc or tr .
And dont try to blame your ass beating on the fact that we brought other piltos in . You kids pulled like 20 to 30 mossies with lock ons , forming an giant air zerg which was no fun at all , getting owned by better pilots and you could have brought in anybody you want , wouldnt have made a difference.

You got beaten by the better players and now you try to cry about it. GG , way to be a competive player.
Here is how MLG is gonna be :
Teams will form up under one Name , a Faction BUT it wont be limited to join from other people of other factions. It would be stupid because as well as in proffesinal sports , there is a player "trading /swapping "between teams , doesnt matter what SOE says , MLG has the last word or there just wont be a competive PS2.
Mlg is not about feeling and "honor" MLG is about the best team fighting the best team , and if you dont like it , dont worry my sponsor " Uninstall wizard" will help you there.
Can you now grew some balls and enjoy your tomcats on your "1337" server? K thanks bai

@RCCC , get somebody on the Reachcast for air commentary , and get a thrid observer cam up for that.
You had 1 for the north side one for the south side , but just for air combats , and well you guys dont understand much from air ( no offense).
There was a situation when there was really good fight going on , but the cam was on 1 TR guy ghost capping a base , while planes blew up above them.

But just dont get MattiAce , kid is a bad pilot who only puts his easy wins on youtube , neither me cause i am rated IAMLASK for insane and most likely a serial killer.

I assume you are one of the many players from the Matherson outfits that participated the other night.

Well we were all given the same rules.10 Beacons allowed,no leaving to go to hossin for resources, outfit members only,and so on and so forth.

We bothered to follow these rules, others shat all over them.

There is no denying the devastating damage the matherson outfits brought to the air.I cant really tell from the footage and I was on the ground ,but I know what I heard on coms ,and our guys were having a hell of a time in the air against the matherson server.

I knew going in who ever won the air won the match.Its just how it is on nexus atm. Thats why the devs were talking about a revamp of the map, adding shields domes to the bases, more cover,even the removal of air all together on the battle islands .Needless to say I was there hoping of seeing a good infantry fight,and I found myself bored most of the time because everyone was in the air.What it comes down to is I wasted my time playing against a server there cares nothing for rules and has no honor.

As for better pilots??? I dont even know what a good one looks like. I spend more time in a drop pod than I do a mossy.lol.

Like I said we were all given rules to follow.

If they wish to continue events like this they need to stand by the rules they make ,and enforce them. Otherwise I dont see a long list of outfits waiting to get on CC.

Like Evilpig said, might as well change the name to Server Clash, anything goes.

retrogreq · 2013-09-27, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

,no leaving to go to hossin for resources

I have heard this accusation 3 times now. This is such bullshit. WE DIDN'T GO GET MORE RESOURCES, WE MANAGED THEM BETTER THAN YOU.

At the start of each round, the ground guys pulled ALL of our air a vehicle, then even MORE ground guys pulled BACKUPS of those vehicles, and parked them in assigned spots in the WG. Our pilots didn't even use ANY of their resources till they died for a 3rd time in each round.

There, the secret is out of the bag. We are better strategists.

Rumblepit · 2013-09-27, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by retrogreq

I have heard this accusation 3 times now. This is such bullshit. WE DIDN'T GO GET MORE RESOURCES, WE MANAGED THEM BETTER THAN YOU.

At the start of each round, the ground guys pulled ALL of our air a vehicle, then even MORE ground guys pulled BACKUPS of those vehicles, and parked them in assigned spots in the WG. Our pilots didn't even use ANY of their resources till they died for a 3rd time in each round.

There, the secret is out of the bag. We are better strategists.

LOL wow I was not making any such accusation. I was simply going threw some of the rules we went over. The "So on and so forth" should have implied that to the layman.... lol Your awfully defensive.

I said you guys were stacking.... Glad to see you guys finally stopped denying that.Its a start.