Galaxy gunships and drop pods as well as other side grades.

[Shlomoshun]

Just make the armor in a GG relative to how many crew are included, and youv'e got balance regardless of how people try to exploit it. A GG with 2 crew or a dualboxer gets 2/6 of the total armor that a 6/6 fully staffed one gets. Play with this ratio to find some sort of balance (or slight imbalance to encourage whatever playstyle the Dev's want) and it's an unexploitable vehicle.

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by Figment

@Kipper: That would work. I'm simply doubting it would happen that way.

Maybe... But I highly doubt they'll spend all of this time (and beta time) balancing the shit out of every other vehicle and class, and then throw in an unkillable OP flying machine. That would just be dumb.

[Figment]

It's not unkillable, nothing ever is (in theory). It just should be practicle for the game and not be too dominant. A lot of players left PS1 because infantry outdoors and ground vehicles outdoors would have been fun if they wern't left to wims of the aircav users. :/

I really do hope that this time around aircav users realise they're just a fraction of the playerbase. They have every right to have fun, every right to - in a situation that suits them - pwn, but they should realise that shouldn't be at the cost of the fun of others.


For instance, Aircav users in PS1 demanded they could have AA free zones to dogfight, yet insisted they should not be stopped from engaging ground targets. Why should they have AA free zones, but ground vehicles not "aircav free" zones? I'm all for AA to be like "bubbles" of protection, just as long as entering those bubbles is certain death for aircraft.

Even stealth aircraft avoid radar bubbles for good reason in real life! They'd instantly be engaged if detected. So IMO, when entering an airzone where AA is present, air should speed in, strike and remove themselves as soon as possible, or fear death by AA.

In that scenario, infantry doesn't have to fear air as much as they did in PS1 and outdoor combat for infantry would be much better and that would do the player numbers in PS2 well. Most players after all, will be FPS players first and foremost and look forward to infantry combat.

Just delegating these players to indoors since that is FPS exclusive is too restrictive for this group of players as most will love to dodge bullets running at a base. Cover will be very important. Very important indeed.

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by Figment

So IMO, when entering an airzone where AA is present, air should speed in, strike and remove themselves as soon as possible, or fear death by AA.

Exactly correct.

In a situation where the AA is expecting the aircraft, and the aircraft is expecting the AA, it should be fairly even as to who is going to come out on top. My expectation is that most of the time, both would miss and abort - but some additional skill on either side should tip the balance.

If the aircraft comes in fast and the AA is surprised, then the aircraft should be able to target it and depending on its physical size and the weapons used and skill of the pilot in aiming, destroy it. (AA needs to be vigilant).

If the aircraft comes in is surprised by / doesn't see the AA until its committed, then the AA should destroy or severely damage the aircraft before it gets out (again depending on the aircraft and the weapon being used).

If for any reason the aircraft doesn't come in fast, and/or starts to linger in an area, then advantage AA, IMO.

[Mechzz]

How realistic is this scenario:

..The 10 Galaxy Gunships had been circling Allatum Tech plant for 10 minutes now. The base courtyard was heaving with explosions as the GG's mercilessly pounded any grunt brave or mad enough to try and make his way out to repair the smashed anti-aircraft turrets. Enemy tanks were closing in now using the GGs awesome firepower to cover their menacing approach.

The defenders, cowering in the base could see that their rich fields of Auraxium and Higbium were going to be lost unless they could hold this base, severly hampering the war effort on this continent. But there was no hope, their AA Maxes were pinned in the base and the mysterious "Devs" who had given so much to help the war effort, had failed to provide any serviceable handheld AA equipment. If the GGs couldn't be dislodged, this base was toast.

At this moment of deepest despair, the local leader of *insert your outfit name here* had a great idea. Along with 19 other brave soldiers, they pulled back to the next base in line and pulled 10 AA aircraft and 10 AV.

The AA machines swooped on the enemy GGs at high speed, smashing them from the sky. As the enemy tanks had not brought their own AA, they were powerless against the second wave of AV aircraft which rapidly reduced them to burning wrecks.

As the pressure on the base fell, the remaining defending troops at the base were able to cautiously enter the courtyard and begin the process of repairing the base defences. Thanks to the heroes of *insert your outfit name here* this corner of Auraxis was safe for now. The next phase in this long war was about to begin......

The End

Now, if that was to be my experience going up against GG's, I may still play the game!

TL;DR I'm hoping the new spawning system and/or having footholds close by will encourage this sort of "cavalry over the hill" type of rescue for bases under pressure.

Thoughts?

[Marinealver]

Funny thing is the best counter for Gal Gunships is Magriders and and Lashers. But any BFR with dual AA weapons works.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

At this moment of deepest despair, the local leader of *insert your outfit name here* had a great idea. Along with 19 other brave soldiers, they pulled back to the next base in line and pulled 10 AA aircraft and 10 AV.

The AA machines swooped on the enemy GGs at high speed, smashing them from the sky. As the enemy tanks had not brought their own AA, they were powerless against the second wave of AV aircraft which rapidly reduced them to burning wrecks.

Thoughts?

It's always been a good idea to have a fall back point, in many cases that can even be an enemy base. Unfortunately it's for most people unlikely to organise this for three reasons:

1. Effort and planning...
Falling back requires an actively available spawnpoint, which in most cases means you should have thought ahead by placing or matrixing to one behind your lines. In some cases, a stray AMS or tower can muck up that whole placement thing. :/

2. Fastest action idiocy.
They just don't see it or don't want to dislodge themselves from the direct action. Nearest spawnpoint is what 95% of the people prefer at all times. Often people don't want to go through the extra logistics (especially if they have to recall).

I often put up an AMS on the same continent in an enemy base with a hacked vehicle term. I commed to all on continent about the only other spawnpoint on the continent being next to an airpad with access to Reavers and Mosquitos. In some cases I asked people to spawn at the nearest tower, then deconstruct into the base (which would have allowed them to get to the other side of the continent.

Often the first three to respond spawn right before the base implodes, then suddenly everyone spawns because the base is already lost.

People just don't respond. After all that, people have to organise to go in together, which they are often too impatient for. The few that do get picked off by the enemy with ease. :/

Worse, there's always someone who will go and blow the enemy vehicle pad, generator and terms. Either because they're egocentrists who want to take an AMS through a shielded CY exit, ignorant newbees who think they spawn there to attack the local base and blowing the gen is how you do that or because they want the fight to end and move to another continent... *cough*Cyssor*cough*

3. To remove ten GGs and their allies, including AA and aircav, you will need way more than ten aircav, tbh...

[Stardouser]

10 GGs is 60 people not capturing flags. It works out in more ways than one.

I would, however, like to see tank shells with fast flight time and minimum bullet drop so that even basic tanks can put the hurt on something that slows down a bit to take shots.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Figment

It's always been a good idea to have a fall back point, in many cases that can even be an enemy base. Unfortunately it's for most people unlikely to organise this for three reasons:

I guess what I'm hoping is that either the new spawn mechanic or simply always having a foothold will encourage the more organised outifts to perform a strategic withdrawal to bring along the toys we need to break out of a defence.

Another thing we might see as emergent gameplay is a RL tactic where some air-centric outfit has a number of AA ships permanently in the air waiting to be called in to break up enemy attacks. And if there are enough GGs around, the number of AA pilots who will find it worthwhile to wait in a stack will be higher.

?

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I would, however, like to see tank shells with fast flight time and minimum bullet drop....

Bullet drop should always depend on muzzle velocity, shell weight, range, air resistance, gravity, angle, and whatever else goes into the calculation. Everything should behave according to the same rules in that way.

If there's a tank gun that fires small, fast, light shells and it has that effect, then great - but no to creating the effect artificially. It would be weird.

Originally Posted by Mechzz

Another thing we might see as emergent gameplay is a RL tactic

I hope the game rewards teamwork > everything else so it looks like a proper battle involving organised empires, rather than a zergload of individuals just doing their own thing.

It would be cool if the game really emphasised to new players the benefits of squads and outfits, maybe even before they get into the battle at all - and really rewarded people who play as units by giving them more survivability and thus ability to earn more kills and resources.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

10 GGs is 60 people not capturing flags. It works out in more ways than one.

I would, however, like to see tank shells with fast flight time and minimum bullet drop so that even basic tanks can put the hurt on something that slows down a bit to take shots.

No, it's 60 people (probably around 20-30 since they're hardly ever full, but fair enough) preventing you from doing anything about any capture the flag attempt being made by a third party that's fighting on the side of the GGs. >_>

Even as a psychological deterrent, since nobody will be willing to go on suicide missions against them. A lot of times, if a base was known ot have an "Orange Alert" to "Red Alert" warning (multiple platoons inside), people would be hesitant if not downright unwilling to move to the base. Gunships or not. Ironically, I've resecured quite a few bases with 99% enemy population on the continent because nobody guarded the doors and the control console IN the room...

[ringring]

Originally Posted by Figment

@Kipper: That would work. I'm simply doubting it would happen that way.



You just wait till the first time you come across ten Galaxy Gunships at once, shit your pants, try to play tanks for a minute, then log off as you can't even reach a vehicle creation pad and when you do die upon getting a vehicle and squandered all your resources, got stuck in the base and your AA options are reduced to AA MAX, which upon getting outside dies to heavy infantry, solo aircav and of course the GGs. If you DO manage to damage one, it flies over and lands behind the nearest hill, out of your reach, repairs and is back before you had a chance to damage any of the other GGs significantly.

That's how it worked with BFRs. That's how it worked with triple GGs tag teaming together. That's how it will work with any quick get-away, high endurance unit. :/

I recall once, the NC were settling in at cave locked Bomazi. They thought they were about to farm the TR, and they were except my outfit arrived with 5 GG's and we circled the base and blasted them back indoors. (that was before the GG nerf)

So instead of a full-on farm, they only got half a one.

Now Figgy seems to suggest it would be better if the GG's hadn't been there.

[The Kush]

Originally Posted by Figment

@Kipper: That would work. I'm simply doubting it would happen that way.



You just wait till the first time you come across ten Galaxy Gunships at once, shit your pants, try to play tanks for a minute, then log off as you can't even reach a vehicle creation pad and when you do die upon getting a vehicle and squandered all your resources, got stuck in the base and your AA options are reduced to AA MAX, which upon getting outside dies to heavy infantry, solo aircav and of course the GGs. If you DO manage to damage one, it flies over and lands behind the nearest hill, out of your reach, repairs and is back before you had a chance to damage any of the other GGs significantly.

That's how it worked with BFRs. That's how it worked with triple GGs tag teaming together. That's how it will work with any quick get-away, high endurance unit. :/

Then go to your factions safe zone and spawn 10 galaxy gunships yourself.. or keep dying. There is always a way to defeat the enemy. Your exact post is the reason not everyone is a leader. You accept defeat, I use my mind to come up with a strategy to counter the enemy. This strategy is very basic, but you could come up with some more advanced stuff to counter gunships.

[Figment]

5 GGs is very crappy to deal with, especially if you struggle to as an outfit get three Deliverers going (and are one of the biggest NC outfits left).

It just shows that of all unit types, AA is the most easy to get overwhelmed. Once that happens, you might as well go play Tetris, because you'll never get enough back up to fight back. You only get one chance to fend off 5 GGs, if half your turrets are down for instance and without access to (against GGs somewhat useless) Skyguards due to not having Tech... You can't expect to put up a defense with AA MAXes. The NC Sparrow required if I recall correctly a little over 100 missiles to kill a GG on their own. Which meant you needed about 10 MAXes emptying an entire clip just to down one GG, while a GG's mortar killed a AA MAX in mere seconds (which immediately go on timers).

Bring 5 GGs, with 2 mortars each and then some... eh. You'll never get sufficient defenses back up if you need 10% or more of your potential playerbase on the continent in AA units. Especially since those GGs aren't the only enemies you face. And that's even assuming you got a full cont pop, a hold like Bomazi tended to be done by small groups of around 10-20 players. Nothing you can do then when faced with a GG, since you cannot spare the AA troops while defending the base.

Plus they'd have to be in the right location at the right time, meaning they couldn't EVER protect more than one base. If that. Hence it was impossible to run any armoured collumn since the introduction of GGs. :/ TR crossing Ceryshen bridge without a massive NC distraction assault south? Forget it. Not with GGs going back in and out of capital force domes!

@Kush: No. The moment the counter to something else is only itself, it's broken game balance. There should always be multiple options in a game from different playstyle perspectives to reach victory.

Your argument is as old as pre-nerf BFRs: completely broken. Bringing 20 pre-nerf BFRs to face 20 pre-nerf BFRs is not fun for anyone. Not even the BFR users.

[Xyntech]

I think that a unit should almost always be a good counter to itself, but never the best counter.