Santorum Drops Out

[HalfManHalfGod]

Originally Posted by Figment

Here's a silly thought Halfman, let's all not pay taxes, let's not pay people to built or maintain infrastructure like bridges (you were not doing that before) and let's not pay police and justice departments with tax payer's money.

Who's arguing this point? We all agree that we need roads, police, courts and infrastructure. You must be really good a reading between all two lines of my text.

[HalfManHalfGod]

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

What if you're born into money? Can you keep that? Are you just not allowed to say you earned it? Does, like, the government slap you with a gag order?

I've always really liked the idea of the supremely rich paying supreme amounts of tax. If it bothers them, they can come split a 2-bedroom apartment with me and make $45k a year and enjoy nice low tax bracket.

Each generation goes further than the generation preceding it because it stands on the shoulders of that generation.

And why does this imaginary rich person have any bearing on your life and the amount of taxes they owe? Why do you like the idea of of government collecting taxes more on the rich? Do you feel that they need to be punished? Do you feel that the rich person has more money because he is taking it from someone else?

We have so many people who can't see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion that the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[TheSHiFT]

I dont, but people richer than me are not cutting me a check. They cut one to the government, who in turn uses it to maintain the society that allowed the rich person to accumulate the wealth in the first place.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Vash02]

It could work if instead of paying the government taxes, the tax money went straight to employee wages. But lets be serious here, thats never going to happen.
What happened during the Bush tax cuts? Wages went down, job numbers were cut and the money stayed in the rich's pockets.

[HalfManHalfGod]

Originally Posted by Vash02

It could work if instead of paying the government taxes, the tax money went straight to employee wages. But lets be serious here, thats never going to happen.
What happened during the Bush tax cuts? Wages went down, job numbers were cut and the money stayed in the rich's pockets.

So you're advocating for straight up Robinhood? Just stealing wealth from one American to give to another?

[Vash02]

Originally Posted by HalfManHalfGod

So you're advocating for straight up Robinhood? Just stealing wealth from one American to give to another?

For everyone to benefit. The money should be going to stop people from starving in the streets, creating and maintaining public infrastructure and to allow people to get the education they need to do pursue the career they desire.

A more educated and socially mobile populace is best for everyone. Creating a worker class where only the rare exception escapes only benefits the rich and the rich wont have any incentives to change that.

[Red Beard]

Originally Posted by elfailo

The strong must live and the weak must die. That's how nature intended it.

So why does compassion exist? Maybe we should ask Jesus.

um; yeah...Pretty sure Hitler said that too.

[HalfManHalfGod]

Originally Posted by Vash02

For everyone to benefit. The money should be going to stop people from starving in the streets, creating and maintaining public infrastructure and to allow people to get the education they need to do pursue the career they desire.

No one is saying that there shouldn't be any taxation for the things you mentioned.

A more educated and socially mobile populace is best for everyone. Creating a worker class where only the rare exception escapes only benefits the rich and the rich wont have any incentives to change that.

When did America become this place where we can only do something when its allowed by another individual? Where did you learn this nonsense that people have to pay more taxes in order for people to get better educations? Only sounds like lame excuses to me.

IF you want it bad enough you will find a way. Hard work and perseverance will get you where you want to go. Let me give you a tip. NOTHING is given to you, you have to go out and EARN it for yourself.

The majority of self-made millionaires in the US every year are foreigners who come to this country with NOTHING.

Capitalism and free markets transformed this country from a backwater colony to the richest most powerful country the world has even known. If you can't make it here, you're doing it wrong.

[Red Beard]

The rich continually get richer because the central bank is at the moment for the benefit of the Banking cartel that runs it. Then those who are closest to this oligarchy benefit progressively less until you're at the bottom of the food chain.

If congress printed money on behalf of all the people equally again (as it did prior to 1913), then the natural tendency of the monetary system would be to naturally settle back at an equallibrium of equality, where people's willingness (and effectiveness) of work would allow them to maintain their wealth.

Taxation simply goes to paying the interest congress owes to the banking cartel, before they re-borrow a new round of money for social programs.

Yes, I am saying that congress used to issue the currency interest free on behalf of all the people and then 'decided' to let the privately owned Fed do it and borrow it from them instead.

[Vash02]

Originally Posted by HalfManHalfGod

No one is saying that there shouldn't be any taxation for the things you mentioned.




When did America become this place where we can only do something when its allowed by another individual? Where did you learn this nonsense that people have to pay more taxes in order for people to get better educations? Only sounds like lame excuses to me.

IF you want it bad enough you will find a way. Hard work and perseverance will get you where you want to go. Let me give you a tip. NOTHING is given to you, you have to go out and EARN it for yourself.

The majority of self-made millionaires in the US every year are foreigners who come to this country with NOTHING.

So how do poor people afford college? They get a scholarship or loan which.... depend on other individuals. Only public funding can allow everyone to get fair and equal access to education.

Also what are you talking about? Up until you leave your parents (if they are good ones) everything is given to you. If you are the child of a rich person you can live life with everything given to you. Your point only makes sense if everyone started out on a level playing field which is not the case.

Why should the poor have to work so hard to achieve success and the rich barely any work at all?

"but vash! life isnt fair!"
No it isnt, but why should we accept that?

[Malorn]

Meh.

[HalfManHalfGod]

Originally Posted by Vash02

So how do poor people afford college? They get a scholarship or loan which.... depend on other individuals. Only public funding can allow everyone to get fair and equal access to education.

Also what are you talking about? Up until you leave your parents (if they are good ones) everything is given to you. If you are the child of a rich person you can live life with everything given to you. Your point only makes sense if everyone started out on a level playing field which is not the case.

Why should the poor have to work so hard to achieve success and the rich barely any work at all?

"but vash! life isnt fair!"
No it isnt, but why should we accept that?

Separate issue but I believe we maybe seeing the pendulum on college attendance swing the other way. When I went to Purdue University in-state tuition was a reasonable 7k a year. Now that I live in Illinois in-state tuition for a public school is almost 40k a YEAR! Forget about a private school. Half of my classes being GenEd were a waste of my time and money. I'm hoping at some point "education" as we know it will be reassessed. Once I actually got a job I learned more in 6months then I did in 4 years of college.

I'm a big fan of apprenticeships and on the job training. If I was a young person and absolutely wanted a college degree I would find the cheapest college and get my degree as fast as possible. While I went to school I would volunteer my time working on my craft to get some experience. When I look at someone resume usually their "education" is at the bottom and most times their degree isn't even in the field they practice.

[Vash02]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Actually the effect of the Bush tax cuts is, unsurprisingly, not concretely known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts

Read for yourself. I'm sure you'll ignore the pro-argument and just read the con-argument, but there's "evidence" for both sides so you can put that soap box aside.

And the economy did just fine until the housing bubble burst - and that had nothing to do with the tax cuts.

That had something to do with a lack of regulation and oversight which is something your probably against.

That's why there's state-run public schools, and why some states like Texas guarantee scholarships based on merit. Top 10% of the class in every public high school in Texas get a free ride to any state school regardless.

Of course a scholarship based on merit does actually require someone to put forth effort and have a culture that values education.

Plus there's countless other forms of financial aid, many of them are not government funded. You have student loans to the private sector who invest in your education with the contract that you'll pay it back when you get out. You have grants and scholarships from the state, charities, churches, and other organizations. Hell you can even get money for simply being born of a particular genetic composition.

The government need not provide you everything and does more than enough.

I did terrible in secondary(high) school, guess in America I'd be screwed. Begging, hat in hand, for money.
But hey in Britain, I'm on track to get a first in software engineering now, no problems, no begging.

Republicans arent ones to really foster a culture of education with their insane conspiracy theories. "LIBERAL COMMIE PROFFESORS GUNNA BRAINWASH YOUR KIDS!" "ELITISTS!"

Why do you say the rich don't work hard? Wealth is generated by someone, and that takes effort, and discipline not to blow it all on stupid shit like 32" rims on a camero.

getting everything paid for you? not having to get a job while at university?

The majority of wealth is generated by the employees, not the guys on top. They only organise things and take a massively disproportionate share of the wealth earned.

Growing up in a harder circumstance can also breed ambition, perseverence, and a strong work ethic. It serves as inspiration and motivation to others. It's the American dream. This is true of many minority groups who come to America for opportunity and sieze it, only to ensure their children get better educations and excel. If they just got handouts some would not be as motivated to excel do more to overcome their adversity.

Some cannot even get started, really why should some people have to work their arses off for 30-40 years with no guarantee of success (most fail) and some have everything given to them by the time they are 25?
Way to inspire people!

Why bother if you can sit on your couch and get a check for doing nothing? Why contribute to society and improve your station when you're content doing nothing and being a parasite to your community?

FYI being poor sucks. Thought you would like to know.

Entirely unfounded and untrue.

Immigrants come to America and steadily improve. In fact many Americans improve. It's not all greatness due to a variety of factors, but "rare escapes" is a bunch of BS.

Even a liberal nutjob like Paul Krugman said this

Studies by the Urban Institute and the US Treasury have both found that about half of the families who start in either the top or the bottom quintile of the income distribution are still there after a decade, and that only 3 to 6 percent rise from bottom to top or fall from top to bottom.

Half of people in the bottom quartile move UP in a decade, as in they're now in one of the other quartiles. Culture has a LOT to do with it, there are social groups that have poor culture, no desire to strive. That also says the rich don't always stay rich like you seem to believe. You can educate yourself on wikipedia by looking up social mobility.

Giving handouts doesn't encourage people to do better. Inspiration, strong culture, good work ethic, values all do that. You can achieve it if you believe and work hard and put forth real effort. If you don't or want to settle then you've already given up.

Of course immigrants work hard, thats the whole point of emigrating.

Also without having to bother to read the wiki I can tell your twisting his words. Seeing as the criteria for a household to move up from the lowest teir is practically one person getting a job (out of a house of 1? 2? 3? 4?) its not a particuarly impressive example of social mobility.