IMO KillCam killing the Game

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by VioletZero

One of the best things about killcam is that it does give away the enemy position of the person who killed them. So that they aren't constantly dying to someone on a mountain somewhere.

This keeps the battles changing and forces people to adapt.

It's more fun to be able to retaliate without having to waste time looking for someone on a mountain somewhere just capping people without threat of being spotted.

It keeps the battle changing in a chaotic fashion as the meta-game evolves instantly.

There is no point in finding a good place to snipe because it will be discovered in your first kill. You can't set an ambush and reap benefits because the first trapped individual can tell everyone all the information they need.


This isn't matchmaking, we're fighting a legit war with logistics and intelligence involved. Killcams oversimplifies this in the sense that it tells players where the enemy is, what they are using, and how.


There are going to be outfits devoted to air combat who will be able to respond immediatley to "I found X over at Y due to killcam" and now that area is destroyed because instead of denying the enemy intelligence from killing them, they've been rewarded it.



People will want to play Planetside 2 for something different. Not a killfest. There is no acheived learning curve assistance from killcams because it's ultimatley situational as far as learning goes.

The meta-game just dissolves into everyone being aware of everything and that just makes it dull and feel like CoD no matter the scale.

[Figment]

Violet, you may not quite get this now if Vancha is right and you have not played PS, but you should realise that sniping is dangerous enough as is. There are more than a few people that might try to kill you and they will bring aircraft or tanks or even a number of buddies if they have to. Typically though, there are infils out and about in the hills to hunt for enemy snipers. We don't need killcams to find them though, but it does speed up the process if you get exact locations.

Also consider that as a cloaker, you are surrounded by 100 to 400 angry, not to mention crazy technophile bastards or perhaps even worse, dirty red scum commie barbarians, or extremely pleasent, freedom loving, civilized capitalists who tote big shotguns.

You don't exactly want to tell them where you are, were, or might be again. You carefully pick of isolated enemies one at a time. You don't want everyone to instantly get told over teamspeak where you are exactly. That they learn you are in the approximate area makes it hard enough to stay alive already as they'll send angry mobs with Dark Light torches after you. Especially if we're not talking hundreds, but potentially a thousand peopls that might be spotting and firing at you.

[Hmr85]

Originally Posted by Figment

Violet, you may not quite get this now if Vancha is right and you have not played PS, but you should realise that sniping is dangerous enough as is. There are more than a few people that might try to kill you and they will bring aircraft or tanks or even a number of buddies if they have to.

Also consider that as a cloaker, you are surrounded by 100 to 400 angry, technophile bastards or commie barbarians, or extremely pleasent, freedom loving, civilized capitalists who tote big shotguns.

You don't exactly want to tell them where you are, were, or might be again. You carefully pick of isolated enemies one at a time. You don't want everyone to instantly get told over teamspeak where you are exactly. That they learn you are in the approximate area makes it hard enough to stay alive already as they'll send angry mobs with Dark Light torches after you. Especially if we're not talking hundreds, but potentially a thousand peopls that might be spotting and firing at you.

QFT

[Aurmanite]

Originally Posted by Figment

@Arclegger: look what you did, now you got them all focusing on the blue texts! xD

That there are 500 other people to fight only matters if you are confronted with 500 other people at the same time and have to pick out that particular person. We're however not playing memory and if you only face 5-25 people (which will happen), then such information is a lot more valuable.

However, even in a base siege of PS1, if I know a cloaker is around merely through killspam, I'll start a search, people switch on dark light. If someone who died can tell you exactly how this person did this, from which spot, then by the time he tells you over teamspeak, that guy is only a few seconds from that position. Provided he had a chance to move undetected at all.

Teamspeak: "Cloaker, top east base stairs to wall" -> DL and correct angle -> Kill. Instead of "Cloaker, somewhere near east wall" -> DL search bottom and top + surrounding area" -> cloaker has a few seconds more to gain new situational awareness, check if he/she's been spotted and plan an escape.


What I'd personally be more annoyed with though is that people would learn my infil tricks by accidentally seeing them on cam and start expecting them once they know I'm in the killzone. Though a bit rusty, I still quite able to misguide enemies in thinking I went in direction A, while I went to sit in B. Next time they know I might be the one inside, they may not fall for some tricks. That's really something they shouldn't have learned by peaking over my shoulder, but from experience.

I wouldn't want them to know typical safe spots from where I start an approach on them either, because they'd start checking them. And frankly, if they don't do so on their own, they don't deserve to flush me out.


Thing is, I think most people don't want the game to do too much for the player. Intel gathering is one of those things.

A non cam related, but computer assistance related annoyance from World of Tanks is the computer doing the scouting for the player. It is killer on flanking moves as strategy when the computer spots you through spotting rules, it puts a big marker over your head and you on radar for their entire enemy team to see. Whether or not someone had actually noticed you yet. You immediately get targeted by the entire enemy team, who usualy instantly hit you as they got computer assisted aim (little personal skill involved). That doesn't encourage players to become better and sharper, quite the opposite.

Computer assistance for players always impacts gameplay somewhat in the sense it makes things easier for someone. That usualy makes that person lazier and more reliant on the pc. The same is true for intel gathering. Hence I'd go with the least intel providing kill cam myself, though I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it would any particular type of cam be used.



Btw, I wouldn't mind someone having to give up an implantslot for killcam. I would mind if you would need to give up a slot for killcam obscuring. Personally though I'd prefer the rule: not spotted by player or his buddies: no chance of cam.

This is not good analysis.
It is over thought.
Full of strawman and red herring.

If a cloaker kills you by the stairs, killcam or not you know where you were and can just as easily communicate the position over a voice chat program.

No one will ever be able to over come your skills and tactics because they watched a brief video of you killing them. Not unless they are a better player than you.

It is always better to have a concise point written in as few words as possible. Longer posts tend to muddle your point.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by VioletZero

One of the best things about killcam is that it does give away the enemy position of the person who killed them. So that they aren't constantly dying to someone on a mountain somewhere.

This keeps the battles changing and forces people to adapt.

It's more fun to be able to retaliate without having to waste time looking for someone on a mountain somewhere just capping people without threat of being spotted.

I think the scale of gameplay you're imagining may be a tad on the low side.

[HitbackTR]

Originally Posted by Miir

They don't add anything to the game so I say no go.

But then again... what else do you have to do while you wait for your spawn timer to run down.

Run to the fridge and get another beer duh.

[Aurmanite]

Originally Posted by Vancha

I think the scale of gameplay you're imagining may be a tad on the low side.

I think you're imagining that killcams will be implemented in a particular way when we have absolutely no information on how they will work.

If the killcam video shows my crosshair zoomed in on your brain, and delivering a cap to your crown, what positional awareness do you gain? The general direction of where the shot came from? You would get that from the red pain indicator flash anyways.

No one knows how the killcam will work yet, everyone is just theorysiding. A few of you a chicken-little...ing.

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

I think you're imagining that killcams will be implemented in a particular way when we have absolutely no information on how they will work.

If the killcam video shows my crosshair zoomed in on your brain, and delivering a cap to your crown, what positional awareness do you gain? The general direction of where the shot came from? You would get that from the red pain indicator flash anyways.

No one knows how the killcam will work yet, everyone is just theorysiding. A few of you a chicken-little...ing.

Higby said that you can see the hood ornament of a tank in killcam. I feel free to speculate that killcams will be 3rd person angle'd thing.

[Aurmanite]

Originally Posted by Graywolves

Higby said that you can see the hood ornament of a tank in killcam. I feel free to speculate that killcams will be 3rd person angle'd thing.

This is still highly speculative. What if you were looking down the barrel of the cannon? You would still be able to see the hood ornament.

I'm not saying anyone's speculation is wrong, only that we should remain calm and breathe.

We don't know enough yet.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

If a cloaker kills you by the stairs, killcam or not you know where you were and can just as easily communicate the position over a voice chat program.

YOUR position and the cloakers APPROXIMATE position, not the cloakers EXACT position. Nuance that saves precious seconds in a search. I find 0.5-3 seconds extra time to look around quite significant. Don't you?

No one will ever be able to over come your skills and tactics because they watched a brief video of you killing them. Not unless they are a better player than you.

If the killcam lasts 5-10 seconds? If it's just two seconds maybe, but a cam tends to be longer. Don't know about you, but I do a lot in 5-10 seconds prior to a kill. I mean TTK is around 1-2 seconds and that's usualy within 3 seconds of me starting my move from ambush. Which means they'd learn where and perhaps even how I lay ambushes in detail. Especially if I just got in that spot as they may well have been chasing me at the time. If they just died, all they'd have known was I killed them through some ambush, but not from exactly how the ambush worked. If they'd be able to learn even part of my movement pattern, they could use it against me, particularly in a short distance chase.

We're not talking the CoD sample of someone obvious randomly running around a corner and firing here. There's a lot to learn in that period of time.

So far, even DT has sufficient trouble following me despite their webs to catch infils. If they could see HOW I move through a base even a bit because one of them ran into say a boomer trap and it showed where I was then, ALL of DT would know in the future.

It is always better to have a concise point written in as few words as possible. Longer posts tend to muddle your point.

Let 'm swim. Short answers are usualy interpretable and ambiguous.


EDIT: Note that the word that's key here is, IF. Point people make though is that anything you see gives you info. keep that info to a minimum.

[BigBossMonkey]

Originally Posted by waldizzo

I'm hoping the kill cam is not like BFBC2 or BF3's. Seeing that guys emotionless but yet smug face bothers me.

Agreed. If there are killcams, I'd prefer a first person point of view one.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

I think you're imagining that killcams will be implemented in a particular way when we have absolutely no information on how they will work.

Originally Posted by Graywolves

Higby said that you can see the hood ornament of a tank in killcam. I feel free to speculate that killcams will be 3rd person angle'd thing.

Whoops.

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

No one knows how the killcam will work yet, everyone is just theorysiding. A few of you a chicken-little...ing.

Hey, I've yet to say this would kill or ruin the game (or end the world). I've even said I'd be okay with killcam being an implant, but killcams will affect gameplay. Killcams may have their bonuses in other games, but the point is whether it belong in a game on Planetside's scale?

Edit:

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

This is still highly speculative. What if you were looking down the barrel of the cannon? You would still be able to see the hood ornament.

You'd also still be able to calculate where the shot came from.

Edit II: Now, if killcams were shown from the perspective of the shooter, but all terrain was removed (I've only played the first one, but I'm imagining the blue level interludes in Assassins Creed), then killcams might avoid ruining someone's day, but I sort of doubt that's what they're planning.

[Aurmanite]

Originally Posted by Figment

YOUR position and the cloakers APPROXIMATE position, not the cloakers EXACT position. Nuance that saves precious seconds in a search. I find 0.5-3 seconds extra time to look around quite significant. Don't you?



If the killcam lasts 5-10 seconds? If it's just two seconds maybe, but a cam tends to be longer. Don't know about you, but I do a lot in 5-10 seconds prior to a kill. I mean TTK is around 1-2 seconds and that's usualy within 3 seconds of me starting my move from ambush. Which means they'd learn where and perhaps even how I lay ambushes in detail. Especially if I just got in that spot as they may well have been chasing me at the time. If they just died, all they'd have known was I killed them through some ambush, but not from exactly how the ambush worked. If they'd be able to learn even part of my movement pattern, they could use it against me, particularly in a short distance chase.

We're not talking the CoD sample of someone obvious randomly running around a corner and firing here. There's a lot to learn in that period of time.

So far, even DT has sufficient trouble following me despite their webs to catch infils. If they could see HOW I move through a base even a bit because one of them ran into say a boomer trap and it showed where I was then, ALL of DT would know in the future.



Let 'm swim. Short answers are usualy interpretable and ambiguous.

I'm not going to do that thing where I quote portions of your post. That's kinda weird.

If someone learns that you attack from behind, that's fine. Unless they have precognition they won't know you're coming before you're there. There will be no sign that you are in the immediate area. If someone gets killed by a cloaker, or notices that someone else did, they will be on the alert anyways.

With regards to reporting someones position...well. You should look into time and relativity. Reporting someones exact position at a point in time is exactly as effective as reporting someones general position at an exact point of time. In either case they change. Again, you're over thinking it.

[Sifer2]

I almost wonder if its one those vanity things where the devs want you to see those pretty detailed character models. So they want to zoom in on them every time you die.

Honestly I would rather not see it. You wont be able to turn them off or go to a server without them enabled. So it will just annoy a lot of people. I would rather see them go an immersion route with this game really. That is everything first person all the time. Even vehicle driving. And when you die just fall to ground then black out.

[Hmr85]

I think we need a kill cam video from the Devs right now so we can see what it looks like.
Higby are you there?