Definition of 'Selling Power' - Page 9

Raymac · 2011-09-13, 05:09 PM

I'm going to start calling 7-11 a "power store" because p0intman and Sirisian have now taught all of us that convenience = power.

Also, have fun playing that other new mmofps that just uses the subscription only payment model.

p0intman · 2011-09-13, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

I'm going to start calling 7-11 a "power store" because p0intman and Sirisian have now taught all of us that convenience = power.

Also, have fun playing that other new mmofps that just uses the subscription only payment model.

Argument from ignorance much?

Convinence IRL is fine, but in a shooter it isnt.

Sorry... its almost not worth the reply because its so obvious.

Raymac · 2011-09-13, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by p0intman

Argument from ignorance much?

Convinence IRL is fine, but in a shooter it isnt.

Sorry... its almost not worth the reply because its so obvious.

Pot call kettle black much?

I'm sure you have an example you can point to of convenience being sold in an mmofps and completely ruining the game. No?

Ah, so since we have no precedent, we have to use critical thinking skills. Speaking of shooters, what percentage of fps games charge a subscription?

p0intman · 2011-09-13, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Pot call kettle black much?

I'm sure you have an example you can point to of convenience being sold in an mmofps and completely ruining the game. No?

Ah, so since we have no precedent, we have to use critical thinking skills. Speaking of shooters, what percentage of fps games charge a subscription?

Direct subscriptions from the dev companies themselves? Almost none, though the platform networks (Xbox online, playstation online, steam etc) give a portion of their profits from sales/subscriptions to the dev companies anyway or they make their money through box sales. Thats usually sufficent if they're popular enough. If it isnt, they release new map packs for small amounts of cash. Typically though those games aren't bigger than 32/32 or 64/64 setups.

They don't sell ingame advantages as far as I am aware.

Raymac · 2011-09-13, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by p0intman

Direct subscriptions from the dev companies themselves? Almost none.

And this is the fundamental issue here. If Planetside 2 doesn't have enough players, it's going to be dead on arrival. Thats why I believe, partially due to the success of Planetside Reserves, that Planetside 2 must have a free to play option.

I'm just trying to keep an open mind on how a free 2 play option would work with Planetside 2. I could very well be wrong, but I get the perception that this isn't even factoring into your thoughts at all.

You think any of us want a cash shop because we love shopping so damn much? Of course not. I'm just trying to imagine different ways for Planetside 2 to NOT repeat mistakes the previous game made and actually support a large player base for years and years.

p0intman · 2011-09-13, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

And this is the fundamental issue here. If Planetside 2 doesn't have enough players, it's going to be dead on arrival. Thats why I believe, partially due to the success of Planetside Reserves, that Planetside 2 must have a free to play option.

I'm just trying to keep an open mind on how a free 2 play option would work with Planetside 2. I could very well be wrong, but I get the perception that this isn't even factoring into your thoughts at all.

You think any of us want a cash shop because we love shopping so damn much? Of course not. I'm just trying to imagine different ways for Planetside 2 to NOT repeat mistakes the previous game made and actually support a large player base for years and years.

I personally can't take IRL comparisons to digital entertainment developers seriously, like your argument of a 7-11 comparison... just doesn't hold water for me.

And call me a purist, but no I don't think anyone wants it... I just refuse to entertain the idea of supporting a game that has one because I find it offensive to the equilibrium of the game itself. I'd rather such a game be stillborn than prosper.

Raymac · 2011-09-13, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by p0intman

I personally can't take IRL comparisons to digital entertainment developers seriously, like your argument of a 7-11 comparison... just doesn't hold water for me.

And call me a purist, but no I don't think anyone wants it... I just refuse to entertain the idea of supporting a game that has one because I find it offensive to the equilibrium of the game itself. I'd rather such a game be stillborn than prosper.

OK, I'll fully admit that my 7-11 comment was a bit bitchy and not an accurate comparison.

However, you are still turning a blind eye to the simple reality that shooters don't have subscriptions. Now, if Planetside 2 could support the large player base it needs with only subscriptions, I'd be all for it. Unfortuntely, that didn't happen for Planetside 1, and it won't happen for Planetside 2.

Simple obvious current example, just look at how many more people played Planetside during the recent free 45 days. As soon as they needed to pony up that "minor" $15, POOF they were gone. Another example is the influx of players from the Reserves program I mentioned earlier.

It's clear you care more about being an advocate against "cash shops", which is fine. Everybody is entitled to being an activist, but that last line you just said that I bolded...how you'd rather see Planetside 2 fail, well I just have 1 thing to say about that....

p0intman · 2011-09-13, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

OK, I'll fully admit that my 7-11 comment was a bit bitchy and not an accurate comparison.

However, you are still turning a blind eye to the simple reality that shooters don't have subscriptions. Now, if Planetside 2 could support the large player base it needs with only subscriptions, I'd be all for it. Unfortuntely, that didn't happen for Planetside 1, and it won't happen for Planetside 2.

Simple obvious current example, just look at how many more people played Planetside during the recent free 45 days. As soon as they needed to pony up that "minor" $15, POOF they were gone. Another example is the influx of players from the Reserves program I mentioned earlier.

It's clear you care more about being an advocate against "cash shops", which is fine. Everybody is entitled to being an activist, but that last line you just said that I bolded...how you'd rather see Planetside 2 fail, well I just have 1 thing to say about that....

I made my opinion known to CCP in the rather large threadnought about microtransactions when it was initially discussed and I've played it since 2005. I can love the game and franchise, but if it must descend into selling power... I'd rather they close it down permanently and admit defeat.

Same goes for planetside.

CutterJohn · 2011-09-13, 07:32 PM

10 bucks says point still plays and buys the weapons.

Raymac · 2011-09-13, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by p0intman

I made my opinion known to CCP in the rather large threadnought about microtransactions when it was initially discussed and I've played it since 2005. I can love the game and franchise, but if it must descend into selling power... I'd rather they close it down permanently and admit defeat.

Same goes for planetside.

I can't comprehend how you don't understand that shooters don't survive with subscriptions.

Well, now that I know that you are basically the equivilent to some intellectually dishonest political activist on a crusade to do away with cash shops in any way shape or form, I (and hopefully the devs) can just ignore your closed minded comments.

There's no point in discussing nuances of an option when you are just going to be completely closed minded to the concept.

Personally, I'd rather see Planetside 2 have tons of players with a cash shop that sells items you can grind for as well, than cling to some out dated business model which will inevitably fail.

p0intman · 2011-09-13, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Well, now that I know that you are basically the equivilent to some intellectually dishonest political activist on a crusade to do away with cash shops in any way shape or form, I (and hopefully the devs) can just ignore your closed minded comments.

Is that supposed to be an insult? I'd apologise for it doing nothing but making me laugh, but I can't even find it amusing. Its an ad-hominem argument at best.

Edit: I'd also reply to the rest of your argument, but its mostly opinion.. and anything left you nullified with the personal attack/ad-hominem argument.

fbiCougar · 2011-09-13, 08:48 PM

If there are "weapons of mass destruction" in the store I refuse to buy them... That is to say unless "the sword of a thousand truths" is an option

lmao

Sirisian · 2011-09-13, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

I'm just trying to keep an open mind on how a free 2 play option would work with Planetside 2. I could very well be wrong, but I get the perception that this isn't even factoring into your thoughts at all.

That's the thing, most of us that have p0intman's stance are open minded enough to realize that a F2P system can't function without getting players to pay money. Now the difference is that we realize, as do you and every other F2P person, that this will involve selling some form of power, but we view that as a poor way to support a game.

Honestly if the game can't sustain itself without selling things that affect the core gameplay then the business model has no place in Planetside 2.

Originally Posted by Raymac

You think any of us want a cash shop because we love shopping so damn much? Of course not. I'm just trying to imagine different ways for Planetside 2 to NOT repeat mistakes the previous game made and actually support a large player base for years and years.

A subscription allows this and keeps out a destructive item mall system. As long as the game is genuinely fun people will play it. You're looking at the wrong reasons why Planetside didn't succeed. You're misguided if you continue down that path of trying to relate Planetside's failures to the business model it used.

Originally Posted by Raymac

Simple obvious current example, just look at how many more people played Planetside during the recent free 45 days. As soon as they needed to pony up that "minor" $15, POOF they were gone.

Yeah that wasn't the reason. I can tell you how it went for me since I logged in like 3 times during the 45 days free. "I shouldn't do this since the game has shown its age, and I'm just going to be disappointed". Yeah it just me remember why I stopped playing. The game gets repetitive and there's nothing new after you've played it on and off for years. Assuming the 15 USD was the reason they didn't come back is laughable at best. Even my friends only logged on a few days to see if anything changed.

Ignore this. Speaking of my friends I was at the pub and one of them said they won't play a F2P Planetside game since it's for failed games. I'm not supporting his view, but I found it interesting. That and now I have to see if my other friends will at least try it. We used to all play Planetside when it released.

Zulthus · 2011-09-13, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

A subscription allows this and keeps out a destructive item mall system. As long as the game is genuinely fun people will play it. You're looking at the wrong reasons why Planetside didn't succeed. You're misguided if you continue down that path of trying to relate Planetside's failures to the business model it used.

Yeah that wasn't the reason. I can tell you how it went for me since I logged in like 3 times during the 45 days free. "I shouldn't do this since the game has shown its age, and I'm just going to be disappointed". Yeah it just me remember why I stopped playing. The game gets repetitive and there's nothing new after you've played it on and off for years. Assuming the 15 USD was the reason they didn't come back is laughable at best. Even my friends only logged on a few days to see if anything changed.

Exactly. People don't pay a sub fee for Planetside anymore because it isn't worth it anymore. $15 truly is a minor cost, but still? Why waste money on a boring game? My sub just ended and while I realize it's the only game of its kind, it just isn't fun for me anymore.

If Planetside 2 proves to be a fun game with even more features than its predecessor, then people will gladly pay a sub fee for it. Right now, it sounds like SOE thinks the game can only survive if it has a cash shop. It just does not fit in a game like this. Custom skins should be unlocked in-game somehow; you shouldn't have to pay a dime.

Anyway, PS2 should be able to survive on its own without the mangled crutch that is a cash shop.

basti · 2011-09-13, 10:28 PM

Sir, grab your friend that said F2P is for fail games, and punch him in the face, will ya? Because that guy is an idiot.

Granted, there are LOTS of bad F2P games out there, and a lot of them even just sell power for the sake of getting money, but there are also good ones, very good ones.
Now, on the other hand, there are LOTS of bad subscription model games, but they dont sell power (how could they?). There are alos good ones.

Means, the business model has nothing to do with the quality of the game.

Lets cut to the core here:

What we need is players. But not the usual MMO player that is used to paying a box price and a monthly subscription, what we need is the FPS player. And as we all know, there arent exactly much FPS out there that let you pay bucks each month to be able to play. Just hop onto a random FPS gaming forum and ask them if they would pay each month to play a game. Guess what, you would be laughed at for asking such a question.
Thats why planetside 2 is going to be free to play, to actually get US the players so we actually have a game full of people, instead of a wasteland.

Could the game still work without a shop but with subscription? Uhm, pretty sure it could, yes, but not to the level it would need to.
According to that chinese interview, Sony spend 50 million us Doller on Planetside 2. No way to prove it right now, but im just guessing its somewhat accurate. 50 million means The game needs to sell about 900k copies to be equal at release. And if you know http://mmodata.blogspot.com/ , then you know this isnt a number they will get easy.
So, instead of trying the harder thing and getting FPS players to pay a subscription, they go for the easy thing, let them play, and hopefully get them to pay some cash.

I would still prefer a subscription with no cash shop, because i also fear the effect it could have on the game, but most FPS players simply wont pay a monthly sub.

And if i have to choose between a succesful game with lots of players and ongoing development, and an empty game, then i rather choose the game with players, because i know what happens when they screw the cash shop stuff up: we will drill them a new hole. So its in their interrest as much as in our interrest to now screw this up, so no need to worry.