Gun Control - Page 9

Sabot · 2012-07-24, 02:04 PM

Do you think it is reasonable to dictate state law based on what goes on out in the country side, or what happens when the same things you use for fun or whatever it is you use your weapons for, are used in the big city to kill everybody in a school.
I think the law has to be tailored to stop that, rather than preserve your right to unload a sawed off shotgun on a burnt out car in the backyard.

And no one is telling you what to do. We're telling you that making it legal for everyone to carry firearms in public is a fucking stupid idea, because it will only not make it easier for psychos that fires on poeple in a theatre, it will increase the number of killings and threats with guns.

Figment · 2012-07-24, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Greeniegriz

Also, kids (regardless of age) today see firearms in use everyday on TV. I think its important to talk to kids about firearms at an early age. Just talk. They should know what is acceptable use of a gun way before they ever get a hand on one.

Cheers,

GG

That is something we can probably all agree on. Same for teaching a kid how to remain disciplined when faced with violence from other kids (what's appropriate self-defense et all). But tbh, there are a lot (one is too many) of parents who just think it's fine for kids to get in fights, or at a young age get to fire guns, drink beer at a party, etc. Utter disregard for safety.

Again, let me please stress I don't say all nor even the majority aren't responsible, just that there are too many irresponsible. I find it too easy to argue that just because you're responsible, others are too. You might handle everything fine, but not everyone is Firefly. As said before, I'd rather restrain gun ownership for both the good and the bad guys, than let the good guys suffer the irresponsibilities of the bad guys.

Btw, if you see someone with a gun here and it's not a law enforcer, you don't need to think if they're a bad guy or not.

In fact, we've had weapon collection events where people could hand in illegal weapons (guns, knives, etc) at no penalty. These events have removed a lot of weapons from the street.

In 1999 for instance, one such event brought in approximately 14.000 weapons, including which a dozen or so illegal fire arms. For the majority of these weapons, think knuckle rings, stilletos, bats, that sort of thing. Note that we're not talking the most law abiding citizens handing in their weapons here.

http://www.refdag.nl/oud/bin/991230bin01.html

I doubt you can read that though. ;P

@Ziegler: I don't really believe in child slave labour either, no.

BuzzCutPsycho · 2012-07-24, 02:27 PM

Firefly · 2012-07-24, 02:38 PM

Yes, we've seen that as a rebuttal. Grandpa in the internet lounge against two dipshit kids with one broken and non-firing rusty gun who weren't even paying attention. What a great comparison to a guy in body armor firing an assault rifle in a dark theatre.

I'm still trying to figure out if Grandpa is a combat veteran, too. That's a motherfucking sheepdog there.

ziegler · 2012-07-24, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

@Ziegler: I don't really believe in child slave labour either, no.

Oh, that is evident, you dont believe in a kid having a good work ethic from the time they are young. I started mowing lawns at 10 years old. I bought my own first car at 14 with money I saved up from mowing yards on my own. God how my parents abused me,,,it was so bad I have lived for 25 years on my own, never collected the first welfare check or unemployment check and support my family on my sole income...yeah...my parents were real bastards expecting me to work. If it'll make you happy, I'll try to hate them for it.

Sabot · 2012-07-24, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by ziegler

Oh, that is evident, you dont believe in a kid having a good work ethic from the time they are young. I started mowing lawns at 10 years old. I bought my own first car at 14 with money I saved up from mowing yards on my own. God how my parents abused me,,,it was so bad I have lived for 25 years on my own, never collected the first welfare check or unemployment check and support my family on my sole income...yeah...my parents were real bastards expecting me to work. If it'll make you happy, I'll try to hate them for it.

So... basically you missed out on a big part of life, namely childhood, because you had to work since you were 10? I'd be pissed and want to shoot stuff all day as well...

What you're describing isn't good work ethics... it's life in 19th century

ziegler · 2012-07-24, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sabot

So... basically you missed out on a big part of life, namely childhood, because you had to work since you were 10? I'd be pissed and want to shoot stuff all day as well...

What you're describing isn't good work ethics... it's life in 19th century

ROFLMAO. You wouldnt have a clue. Maybe you didnt have a daddy that worked and wanted to be like him and help him with jobs and show you could do things on your own. I feel sorry for you but you are nowhere near alone in todays youth. Keep playing those games and sitting inside all day every day and tell me about how great a life you're living. Kids are so cute.

Sabot · 2012-07-24, 04:39 PM

Whatever man... to each his own I guess. If you're happy the way things turned out, nothing else really matters, does it?

ziegler · 2012-07-24, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sabot

Whatever man... to each his own I guess. If you're happy the way things turned out, nothing else really matters, does it?

Now see...there is a good lesson that alot of people on this forum could learn. Live and let live.

Vash02 · 2012-07-24, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

I was pointing out there were adults on the island capable of being armed.

And? "I'm going to an island where the vast majority of people will be children... sounds dangerous, better bring my gun"
If they did bring a gun the vastly more likely situation, rather than a madman turning up in a police uniform, is that one of the kids got a hold of the gun and shoot themselves/friend/random person walking by.

Accuser · 2012-07-24, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly

Please, stop talking about how awesome you are. I can guarantee you that most of you range-trained pistol-wielding cowboys wouldn't react the way you claim when someone points a loaded weapon at you. Until you've spent months and years training to run towards the sound of gunfire, until you've gotten into your first real, live firefight with real, actual bullets and real, actual no-respawns-allowed death, until you've pissed your pants or even shit your pants when bullets start coming your way, all of your typings on the internet ring false with every single person who ever wore a uniform and deployed downrange or walked a beat.

So you're saying that we should encourage former police and military veterans to carry in public? I can completely get behind that. In fact, I'd imagine that a significant number of a significant number of people from those two groups do just that.

On the other hand, if that's the reaction you expect from the average citizen when bullets are flying at them, wouldn't an inexperienced mass-murderer potentially react the same way if confronted by a civilian who stopped pissing himself long enough to take a few shots?

Firefly · 2012-07-24, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Accuser

On the other hand, if that's the reaction you expect from the average citizen when bullets are flying at them, wouldn't an inexperienced mass-murderer potentially react the same way if confronted by a civilian who stopped pissing himself long enough to take a few shots?

Theoretically. It's entirely possible - but I don't understand crazy people and I don't understand psychopaths. What I do know is that this motherfucker was calculating, and he came prepared for war. He might have some sort of social detachment that makes him immune to fear, like a violent breed of autism or some shit. Who the fuck knows? It's a gigantic what-if.

I don't get into what-ifs and all that jazz. I go with what I know, and what I know comes from ten years of being a professional soldier, multiple "excursions downrange", a helluva lot of training, and three combat tours that didn't include being a POG or a Fobbit. And like I said: if you've never been in a firefight, a real fucking firefight with real fucking bullets - not some goddamned video game or airsoft match - then telling me that you would have stood up and shot this dude makes me laugh my balls off.

So if you, Accuser, own a pistol and you were in the Aurora theatre and you stood up and drew down on this asshole, then more power to you. But passing off the Rambo attitude as dead certainty that we can rely upon you (using you as an example) to draw your piece... trying to con me with some argument that well-armed citizens would have just shot this asshole dead on sight? No. Not going to happen.

What I will concede, as I mentioned before in either this thread or its clone, is that perhaps having more "liberal" (as in less stringent and restrictive) gun laws probably would have enabled a lot more people in that theatre to be gun owners. And whether they were armed or not, that possibility alone just may have caused James Holmes to either choose another target or forego his murderous plan altogether. That's neither here nor there for me - my issue is with people claiming that merely owning a gun makes you a suave, brave, battle-hardened motherfucker who will stand up and take a bitch out when the shooting starts.

Warborn · 2012-07-25, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

You pretty much the poster child of why I am for less government. To types
like you citizens can't possibly do for themselves, we need some I'll save you
professional.. That guess what is never around when the saving is needed.

When you get sick, do you go to the doctor, or do you let your buddy Steve cut you open and remove your appendix or whatever? "I'll save you professionals" are called that because they're trained and experienced at saving you. Regular people who have no training are dangerous to everyone around them when they start waving a gun around. Look at the shooting in Arizona, where Gabby Giffords got plugged. A civilian nearby with a firearm came thiiiiis close to killing the bystander who disarmed and subdued Jared Loughner.

Fact is, people are going to get killed by maniacs. Just like how people are going to die in car accidents. But the solution to the former being everyone getting a gun is like the solution to the latter being vehicles restricted such that they're able to travel no faster than 10 kmph. There are sensible solutions, and then there are ridiculous solutions that create an even bigger problem than they solve. And there's still no evidence to suggest that lax firearm laws are even anything like a solution in the first place.

Firefly · 2012-07-25, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

You pretty much the poster child of why I am for less government. To types like you citizens can't possibly do for themselves, we need some I'll save you professional.. That guess what is never around when the saving is needed.

I believe in the analogy of sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. I am a sheepdog. I welcome other sheepdogs to help tend the flock so that "is never around when the saving is needed" never has to be an unfortunate reality for you. But this isn't a place for amateurs, and amateurs will get innocent people killed. So they are not welcome.

What I also do not welcome are delusional mouth-breathing idiot oxygen thieves wearing a myopic set of blinders who pretend to be some hardcore motherfucker on the internet, who talk a big game about how their once-a-week box of ammo at the local gun range under perfect lighting and perfect conditions makes them a walking, talking John Wayne. It's pathetic, it's transparent, and it's tragic. You (generally-speaking you) have jack-shit for experience. Admit to yourself you have no fucking clue how you will react the first time you see someone ELSE'S gun pointed at you. Life isn't a video game. Your courage under fire on Cyssor means fuck-all.

Get this through your head: until you've faced something like this, you don't know how you would react. THE END. That is one of my points. No amount of passive perfect-world training that you think you do will prepare you for the ultimate showdown. And spewing a bunch of horse shit on an internet forum about how awesomely trained you are because you hit the range once a week makes you a fucking laughingstock. Armchair-quarterbacking this scenario when you haven't got a clue what the fuck you're talking about makes you a laughingstock.

Sorry that makes you and people like you more than a little butt-hurt. That is the world in which you live, where assholes like me will shatter your delusions of grandeur, where we will tell you flat-out that you need to get a fucking clue and get real. When you get real about the safe little cocoon in which you live, and start realising that compared to a lot of people you're a babe mewling for his mamma's teat, only then will you step outside your comfort zone. Only then will you become a sheepdog. Until then, you're a liability because you are ill-prepared. Why are you ill-prepared? Because you've never been shot at, you've never been in life-threatening danger the likes of which would make you shit your pants, you've never been in a crowd of screaming terrified people with a guy firing rounds downrange, you've never had a gun aimed at your face. Until that moment happens, you have no clue whether you will sneak a little turd into your Superman Underoos or self-preservation will kick in and you'll react accordingly.

I run towards the sound of gunfire because that's what my profession entails. It takes a lot of training and a lot of reconditioning. I don't come into your Burger King and tell you how to run the fucking fry machine because I'm not qualified to do that. I could wax poetic about how I can take a bag of frozen fries out of the grocery store and put them on a metal sheet and stick them in the oven, but they wouldn't be pro-grade Burker King fries and you'd know I was full of shit if I tried to tell you how a good fry should be made. I'd expect you to be on me like stink on shit.

So spare me the theoreticals and the armchair general dissertations and the Monday-morning quarterbacking on a scenario which it's plainly obvious that you are neither trained nor prepared to deal with.

Accuser · 2012-07-25, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

I believe in the analogy of sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. I am a sheepdog. I welcome other sheepdogs to help tend the flock so that "is never around when the saving is needed" never has to be an unfortunate reality for you. But this isn't a place for amateurs, and amateurs will get innocent people killed. So they are not welcome.

So we train more sheepdogs, right?
Though I should point out, the vast majority (-vast- majority) of police officers have never been shot at. Most haven't had a weapon pointed at them. There is really no training that police officers get that a civilian could not. And some civilians do choose to get that training, as best as it can be obtained.